“I feel he’d be over the bloody moon,” legendary bassist Peter Hook tells Gold Derby, when requested how late Joy Division frontman Ian Curtis would react to the joint induction of Pleasure Division and New Order into the Rock & Roll Corridor of Fame. “[Ian’s] huge level of reference was at all times the Doorways. ‘We’ll be as huge because the Doorways!’ He liked Jim Morrison. So, for us to be in L.A. for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame ceremony, he’d be over the bloody moon.”
Sadly, although, whereas Hook says “wild horses” would not maintain him away from attending, performing, and honoring Curtis’ legacy on the Rock Hall Class of 2026 ceremony, which is able to happen at Los Angeles’ Peacock Theater on Nov. 14, he confirms that he received’t be celebrating alongside Pleasure Division’s surviving members. “After what they did to me, I am afraid it is unforgivable,” he says flatly.
Hook co-founded Manchester, England’s pioneering post-punk band Pleasure Division in 1976 with Bernard “Barney” Sumner and Stephen Morris, and in 1980 — mere days after the 23-year-old Curtis’ tragic suicide on the eve of what would have been Pleasure Division’s first U.S. tour — Hook, Sumner, Morris, and new addition Gillian Gilbert regrouped and carried on because the synthpop outfit New Order, finally discovering even higher success. “One minute it was all there; the following minute, the entire thing was gone and choosing up like a Phoenix rising from the ashes,” Hook recollects.
It might be assumed that enduring such a harrowing ordeal would have bonded the band members for all times. However following Hook’s acrimonious exit from New Order in 2007, a long-running battle between him and his ex-bandmates (significantly Sumner) culminated in Hook’s lawsuit claiming that he was lower out of greater than $3 million in royalties. A “full and last settlement” was reached in 2017 concerning Hook’s authorized use of the Pleasure Division and New Order emblems for his personal group, Peter Hook & the Mild, who carry out songs from each bands’ catalogs. However based on Hook, he and Sumner haven’t spoken in 15 years. “I feel the [broken] bond might be what hurts probably the most,” he admits.
Peter Hook & the Mild may in fact simply deal with all Pleasure Division/New Order efficiency duties at November’s Rock Corridor ceremony. (The Mild’s dwell exhibits usually run “two hours and 47 minutes; typically it goes down at 2:45,” Hook quips — as he holds up the intensive setlist he’s planning for his upcoming 50th anniversary Manchester Academy concert, which may even embody songs from his aspect bands Revenge, Monaco, and Freebass.) However legally, that received’t probably be doable, so Hook plans to carry out with to-be-determined visitor stars. “I can not actually inform you who! However I’ll play by myself, if I’ve to,” he says with a smile.
Within the Q&A beneath that Hook jokingly likens to a “remedy session,” he opens up about what his Rock Corridor look may appear like; how he feels in regards to the Mild touring this summer season taking part in Get Prepared, the New Order “honeymoon document” that he and Sumner recorded proper earlier than band relations unraveled irreparably; his greatest remorse concerning Curtis’ dying; and the way he lastly realized to take care of his grief.
GOLD DERBY: Congratulations! Lastly, Pleasure Division and New Order are within the Rock & Roll Corridor of Fame, after being nominated thrice. How are you feeling about this long-overdue honor? Clearly, there’s so much to course of right here.
PETER HOOK: Oh, you may say that once more! [laughs] The attention-grabbing factor from my viewpoint is that when [the first nomination] occurred, we have at all times been behind it as Peter Hook & the Mild, completely 100%. And we labored to get in. The primary time, the others [in Joy Division/New Order] have been somewhat bit behind it, however the second and third, they hardly talked about it. So, it’s kind of of a wierd, bizarre feeling — prefer it’s not going to be bizarre anyway! It has been a little bit of a tsunami.
Properly, that brings me to the billion-dollar query. It looks as if you are on board with the Corridor and at all times have been, so I assume you are going to be there. However I do not find out about your former bandmates. What’s going to occur? Will you all seem collectively? Will you reunite?
Oh, no. After what they did to me, I am afraid it is unforgivable. They would want Donald Trump and Henry Kissinger collectively to dealer any type of peace with us. The Hormuz Strait in Manchester isn’t opening up once more, let’s put it that method. I do not know what [New Order] are doing, in the identical method that no one ever is aware of. I noticed their statement, which I assumed was somewhat bit odd. … I imply, it got here from “New Order,” which made me snigger, as a result of am I not a part of New Order?
I need to admit, I hoped for a special reply, however in the event you’d really informed me {that a} reunion was going to occur, I in all probability would’ve fallen off my chair.
If you’d have informed me it was going to occur, I’d’ve fallen off my chair! [laughs]
Properly, clearly the Mild may play on their very own on the ceremony, however I am positive there are authorized or simply political points that will stop that from occurring. So, what are you envisioning? You are undoubtedly going to be there, proper?
Oh, I’ll be there. Wild horses would not maintain me away. … I’ve not seen Barney for 15 years. Really, I noticed him stroll previous me as soon as once I was in a bar and I might received my aspect of the court docket case; he quickly scampered off, as a result of I might received on that event. That was the final time I noticed him, however I did not communicate to him. And that is 15 years. I’ve not seeing Gillian for 15 years. I spoke to Steve about 4 years in the past after we have been having one other authorized confab. There’s been no social discuss. And it’s a disgrace, as a result of the factor is, you aren’t getting to rejoice something with anybody. But it surely’s simply what occurred. I suppose in a humorous method, we have all moved on, however I used to be nonetheless actually harm by what they did to me and my household after they took the title, and the way they’ve acted since. And though you’ve got made a type of uneasy peace, let’s consider, you might be nonetheless not going to hurry into one another’s arms.
It’ll be very, very awkward [if the other New Order members attend show up]. However I imply, the factor is, my God, I am 70. Barney’s 70. Steve’s 67. I imply, we’re outdated blokes, so we’re not going to be chasing one another round very quick, are we? “Come right here, ya bastard!” [laughs] It’d in all probability be hilarious to witness.
Properly, you’d have to play on the ceremony, in some capability, as a result of there isn’t a one else that performs bass such as you. Your bass-playing is so integral to the songs that truthfully, once I see the Mild carry out, they sound extra like basic New Order than the actual New Order there days.
In a humorous method, [New Order] have achieved me a favor by sounding, in some songs, fully in contrast to New Order [live], in order that I can play it precisely how we did it and be true to the sound that I like. That is my band. I imply, I used to be there. Barney’s style modified and his concepts modified, and whereas we have been collectively I expressed very a lot that I did not agree with what he was doing to the music. I made a take care of myself after we went again that if I assumed there was one thing flawed, this time I would not swallow it and go bang my head on the wall and bury myself in medication and drink. I might really f–king say it. So, I made myself say it. However I keep in mind we have been having a [band] dialogue as soon as and … somebody mentioned, “Hear, why do not we compromise?” And I went, “OK, let’s compromise,” and Barney was sat there with a bizarre look on his face and went, “No, I am ready for you to compromise!” Um, that is not how compromise works.
I do suppose it’s unusual that New Order and Pleasure Division are a joint inductee, not simply because I really feel each should be within the Corridor on their very own, but in addition as a result of — regardless of sharing three members — they’re very totally different teams. Does the dual-induction trouble you?
Properly, from my viewpoint, the songwriting trio in Pleasure Division have been very, very energetic all through New Order as a trio, as effectively. There’s a large thread going by each bands. … I absolutely and fairly categorically state, right here and now, that if Ian had been round, he would’ve been singing on [New Order’s] “Blue Monday.” He was a fantastic digital [music] lover. It was Ian that launched me to Kraftwerk. He launched me to Can, Faust, all these Krautrock, dance-rock bands. He was effectively on board with all the pieces we have been doing. I keep in mind we did a tune known as “The Solely Mistake,” which was fairly a disco rhythm, and he completely liked it. It was his favourite tune due to the dance aspect. He at all times used to go on: “Oh, ‘The Solely Mistake,’ it ought to be a single!” But it surely did not occur due to… I imply, it is arduous, is not it? As a result of Pleasure Division completed so all of the sudden. One minute it was all there; the following minute, the entire thing was gone and choosing up like a Phoenix rising from the ashes. It was very, very tough.
However we have been nonetheless the identical individuals. Barney, Steve, and I have been the identical individuals. The explanation we obtained Gillian in, who really wasn’t very expert, was as a result of we did not need anybody to vary the sound. We did not need to usher in a longtime guitarist like Steve Severin [of Siouxsie and the Banshees], or Keith Levene [of the Clash and PiL], or anyone like that, who would are available and alter the sound. We have been being very, I suppose, egocentric in that regard. So, she was thrown in on the deep finish, in the event you like, with what was three very skilled songwriters.
However I can see the freeway going by each, and [the dual nomination] would not trouble me. I feel the attention-grabbing factor that I discovered once I began taking part in Pleasure Division’s music in 2010 [with the Light], I observed that there was a fantastic divide between Pleasure Division followers and New Order followers. What used to occur was once I was taking part in a Pleasure Division set, all of the Pleasure Division lot could be on the entrance, after which once I performed the New Order set, they’d all go to the bar and the New Order followers would come ahead. However now, over my interval of taking part in it, that divide appears to have gone.
So, will you be performing on the Corridor ceremony with totally different all-star company?
I can not actually inform you who! However I’ll play by myself, if I’ve to. … I used to be very disenchanted as a result of I’d’ve had the Smashing Pumpkins, Billy [Corgan] and clearly Jack [Peter’s son, who plays with both the Light and the Pumpkins]. It might’ve been great, however [the Smashing Pumpkins] are taking part in with bloody Morrissey that day [at the Darker Waves festival in Orange County]! How small a world is that?
Sure, and one other Manchester artist, Oasis, will likely be inducted alongside you within the Class of 2026, so will probably be an total very Mancunian day in Southern California on Nov. 14.
How nuts is that? Oasis performed their first-ever gig with Noel [Gallagher] on guitar, supporting Revenge, my outdated outfit. Liam [Gallagher] got here as much as me that night time and mentioned, “We have modified our title from the Rain and we have our child on guitar. It is his first gig tonight.” I went, “Yeah, no matter” — grizzled outdated rocker that I used to be then! So, yeah, Oasis performed their first-ever gig with me.
It’s certainly a small world! It’s too unhealthy Billy Corgan isn’t accessible, however have you ever given any thought to who may sing the Pleasure Division songs on the Corridor ceremony? There are numerous artists who’ve been influenced by Ian Curtis, and a few who even sound like him, however there was solely one Ian Curtis.
I felt a bit clean about it for some time. After which Jack, my son, mentioned to me, “I’ve achieved a listing.” He confirmed me his checklist and I used to be like, wow.
Who was on that checklist?
I can’t inform! … However I have been very flattered by the names which have been prompt.
Properly, let me counsel one chance. Hear me out: Grace Jones. She lined Pleasure Division early on, and she or he’s an icon who ought to be within the Corridor herself.
Grace Jones did [Joy Division’s] first cowl model. She paid us, and oh my God, it could not have been better-timed! Her document firm really paid us 20,000 kilos for permission to place out “She’s Misplaced Management,” which she did with Sly & Robbie, and we would have [accepted] about 50 quid! We could not imagine it; we practically fell off our chairs once more in that second, that we obtained supplied that amount of cash when it might’ve been an honor anyway. After which actually amazingly, there’s an A&R man at Polydor known as the Captain; he was very well-known, an actual character. And he got here to me and mentioned, “Hooky, we’re placing out a brand new Grace Jones assortment. Are you able to do me a 12-inch model of Grace’s ‘She’s misplaced Management’?” And Potsy [David Potts] and I, as Monaco, did a 12-inch remix of “She’s Misplaced Management.” I really obtained to sing with Grace… after which simply because the document was about to come back out, [the Captain and Jones] fell out. It is a fantastical model. It actually, actually turned out effectively. I do not know what the hell occurred to it, nevertheless it’s by no means been out. And we did a reggae model as effectively, which was superb. … I’ve obtained a sense the entire thing’s disappeared someplace, however we have nonetheless obtained the tapes.
Properly, there you go! You and Grace Jones can carry out “She’s Misplaced Management” on the Corridor.
I need to admit, as heroines go, she is up there, Grace. My God, her ebook was outrageous. I simply love her. … You already know what? Since you’ve given me the thought, I’ll put her on my checklist.
Superior! However no matter who takes on the Ian Curtis vocals on the ceremony, I am curious — how do you suppose Ian would really feel about this honor? The Rock & Roll Corridor of Fame did not even exist when he was nonetheless alive, and mainstream, American-based accolades, particularly for a band that was nonetheless so younger and from Manchester, in all probability weren’t even in your guys’ radar then. However now that he will likely be honored for the immense contributions he made to music throughout his very quick time on Earth, how do you suppose he’d react?
I feel he’d be over the bloody moon. As a result of he used to spend all his time telling us how nice we have been and what we have been going to attain and the place we have been going to go. And actually in the event you wavered at any level, he would seize you by the lapels — he was like that man within the trenches when you may’t go excessive, going, “Come on, you are able to do it! Rise up there!” He was at all times that type of man, and he was satisfied. And it was humorous, as a result of his huge level of reference was at all times the Doorways. “We’ll be as huge because the Doorways!” He liked Jim Morrison. So, for us to be in L.A. for the Rock and Roll Corridor of Fame ceremony, he’d be over the bloody moon.
I feel some individuals could be shocked to listen to that Ian needed to be a rock star, given his persona and the mythology surrounding him, and in addition the timing that he died handed proper earlier than the large alternative of Pleasure Division’s U.S. tour. Many individuals may assume that he was willfully anti-commercial and did not need success or fame.
I imply, it is a dream, is not it? Anyone who says, “I do not need success” in all probability means they do not need the issues that include success. However the remainder of it, I’ve to say, is fairly good. I imply, I’ve suffered from the issues that include success, which is normally extra. Success and extra are very, very shut collectively. However God, moaning musicians, what number of are you aware? All of them moan about all the pieces, do not they? It is form of endemic. In the event that they play to huge crowds, they need to play to small crowds. In the event that they play to small crowds, they need to play to huge crowds.
However Ian was adamant, whether or not it was simply his method of perking us up — which labored each time. It is at all times the contradiction there, that we could not do it sufficient for him. We could not perk him up sufficient to make him need to keep round, which is sort of an odd factor to confess: that he stored us up, however we could not maintain him up for no matter purpose. However there’s been a couple of solutions for Ian [from the Rock Hall], that are good and will work out effectively.
Was the truth that Ian has such perception within the band a giant motivating issue within the choice to proceed as New Order, as an alternative of simply dropping by the wayside? I’ve at all times been so shocked about how rapidly you regrouped and soldiered on.
Would you like me to inform you the story?
After all.
OK. We went to the inquest on a Thursday in Macclesfield, the inquest with the coroner, and it was horrible. [Ian’s widow Deborah Curtis’s parents] spoke, and it was heartbreaking. It was horrible. It was terrible. And [Joy Division’s manager] Rob Gretton, after the top of it, went, “Come on, let’s go for a drink.” So, we went for a drink to a pub and we had one thing to eat and we have been all sat there, and everybody was very quiet, clearly. And Rob Gretton mentioned, “I’ve not requested, however what are you lot going to do? ” And we went, “What do you imply?” And he went, “Properly, are you going to return to work, or are you going to hold on?” We form of checked out one another, me, Barney, and Steve, and simply went, “Properly, ought to we feature on?” They usually went, “Yeah.”
So, we made a date to go in on Monday to the rehearsal room, which was actually bizarre as a result of Ian wasn’t there. It was the primary time we would been again. And we obtained there on the regular time, 10 o’clock, began taking part in, and by no means seemed again. And weirdly, Thursday was the inquest, and on the Sunday afternoon, the home the place I used to be residing, we had no furnishings. I used to go and sit on the ground within the again bed room of this home with no furnishings and play. And I really wrote the six-string bassline to “Desires By no means Finish” that Sunday afternoon. So, once I went in on Monday, after we began once more, the primary tune that we began with was “Desires By no means Finish” — which was suppose was fairly apt, actually. And that was it.
The attention-grabbing factor about that was that, as a result of we have been so centered on carrying on, we did not actually get hit with the grief. Now, whenever you’re older, you understand the significance of grief. While you’re youthful, you’d do something to keep away from it at any value. And also you’re allowed to keep away from it as effectively. Considered one of my greatest regrets in life is the truth that I did not go and say goodbye to Ian Curtis.
Do you imply at his funeral?
No. You may go and see the physique. And I did not go. Neither me nor Barney went, as a result of we stood there and I mentioned, “Properly, I do not need to see him useless.” However all people else went. I do not know if Steve or Gillian went, however [Factory Records co-founder] Tony [Wilson] went and Rob went. Me and Barney by no means went, and I regretted it. … If somebody had mentioned to me, “Get your ass in there, that’s your mate, and go and say goodbye!” … I want someone had achieved that. As a result of for me, saying goodbye to somebody you’re keen on is sort of an vital factor. I’ve by no means missed a possibility since, however I at all times remorse lacking that. I do not know if Barney does or not, nevertheless it was simply us two that did not go. I went to see Rob, and went to see Tony [when Gretton and Wilson respectively died in 1999 and 2007]. I’ve mentioned goodbye to lots of people. It’s kind of like being surrounded by ghosts, to be sincere with you. However I feel they’d all be delighted [about the Rock Hall induction]. Tony particularly could be thrilled. Rob would simply go, “It ought to have been years in the past!”
You mentioned regrouping so rapidly as New Order was a strategy to not essentially course of your grief, however keep away from your grief. Was there a second later, even when it was many years later, the place you probably did lastly come to phrases along with your grief?
Properly, you have to come back to phrases with it, as a result of you have to stick with it, have not you? I imply, it is a fantastic world. We’re doing our greatest to destroy it, nevertheless it is a fantastic world and there is so many great issues that you are able to do. It’s terrible when you may’t [do anything]. I used to be clinically depressed at one level, and it was an terrible, terrible, terrible factor. And no matter occurs to me since that, I’ve at all times mentioned the identical factor: that I’d by no means go down that individual rabbit gap once more. I am very fortunate that my household take care of me, so I would not need to.
Did your battle with despair enable you higher emphasize or perceive with Ian did what he did when he’d been in his personal darkish place?
Oh, wow. Properly, [my depression was due to] a nasty divorce. It was very, very miserable, although. I suppose despair offers you an understanding into what impact it will probably have on you bodily and mentally. However suicides are totally different, aren’t they? We simply misplaced a pal two years in the past, and he did that factor the place they offer all of the possessions away. And Ian did that, however I by no means discovered till, oh my God, 25 years after he died, or perhaps even longer. I noticed Ian on a Friday night time. He killed himself on Saturday night time. My pal, who went to see him on Saturday afternoon, mentioned Ian was making an attempt to offer away all his possessions. However he by no means informed me that till 25 years later. … I did not know Ian was giving his stuff away, as a result of I’d’ve gone, “Whoa, we have to keep watch over him.” So yeah, it was bizarre in that respect. However [my depression] wasn’t nice, and I am very conscious of the signs now. Did not Winston Churchill name it the “Black Canine”? Generally I can see the black canine within the nook of my eye — and that is the place it has to remain. So, I do take care of myself and need to watch out. It is the identical factor with alcoholism and drug habit. You understand it, so you must watch out.
I feel it is nice that you simply’re speaking about this and that individuals are extra conscious, as a result of within the ‘70s and ‘80s when Ian was struggling, nobody was speaking about psychological well being in any respect. It has actually solely change into a subject of open dialogue in recent times.
Sure. So, are you accessible subsequent week at the moment for an additional remedy session? [laughs]
Any time you want my assist, I’d be blissful to.
We did not discuss your charges!
I’ll do it professional bono! However significantly, I feel it is vital to speak about these things.
It is vital. And in some ways it really helps when someone you already know and love goes by it. Life is a studying course of.
Peter Hook & the Mild are touring in August and September, and the timing is attention-grabbing, as a result of the album you are specializing in is Get Prepared. That was New Order’s comeback after an eight-year recording hiatus, and you have described it as a “honeymoon document” made whilst you and Bernard have been getting alongside, at first fell aside once more. Since Get Prepared was principally the start of the top for you and New Order, does it really feel bittersweet to revisit that materials now?
Bittersweet? It has been bittersweet for a very long time. It actually has. I imply, it is humorous for me as a result of the one factor that obtained me by the court docket case was taking part in the music and doing the gigs, as a result of that gave me the raise to have the ability to stick with it combating for what I assumed was proper. It is attention-grabbing with Get Prepared: I did not know this, nevertheless it was our best-selling album in America. It offered greater than Republic, and greater than Approach. … Barney and I did it kind of alone, and I feel that there was quite a lot of utilizing one another’s strengths; that was the “honeymoon” aspect of it. It was like being in Pleasure Division once more. … I need to admit, it has been my favourite LP to play [with the Light], and I did not anticipate that.
I contemplate the saga of New Order to be one of many best comeback tales in rock — proper up there with AC/DC and the B-52s, who additionally each survived losses that many bands wouldn’t have the ability to get better from. That’s why I really feel it’s bittersweet that New Order received’t reunite on the Corridor. You went by one thing that only a few individuals can think about. There’s obtained to be some type of bond nonetheless there.
I feel the bond might be what hurts probably the most. … But it surely’s OK. It is good. So, I am going to see you similar time subsequent week? [laughs]
Positive, in the event you want one other “remedy session”! But when not, I stay up for seeing you on the Class of 2026 ceremony. I’m very blissful for you, and on your ex-bandmates as effectively, and I’m blissful to know that Ian would have been enthusiastic about this.
Sure, I need to go and see him, really. I’ve not seen him for some time, so I need to go and see him.
Do you imply go to Ian’s grave?
Yeah. I have been which means to, and I need to do it. Perhaps I am going to inform you what he says.
The above Q&A has been edited for brevity and readability. Watch Peter Hook’s full interview within the video beneath:
