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    Home » The David Frum Show: The Fight for the Political Center
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    The David Frum Show: The Fight for the Political Center

    morshediBy morshediJuly 23, 2025No Comments46 Mins Read
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    Subscribe right here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

    On this episode of The David Frum Present, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning about President Donald Trump’s escalating assaults on press freedom. David discusses Trump’s lawsuit in opposition to The Wall Avenue Journal, explains how Trump is utilizing presidential energy to suppress protection of his alleged ties to Jeffrey Epstein, and argues that Trump’s second time period represents a deeper risk to the First Modification than something seen in trendy American historical past.

    Then David is joined by Consultant Ritchie Torres of New York for a dialog about the way forward for the Democratic Get together. Torres explains why the Democratic middle has turn into too passive; how the far left gained affect by means of depth, not majorities; and why slogans alone can’t remedy America’s affordability disaster. They talk about the rise of performative politics, the necessity for a critical governing agenda, and Torres’s private journey from public housing to Congress.

    The next is a transcript of the episode:

    David Frum: Howdy, and welcome to a different episode of The David Frum Present. I’m David Frum, a workers author at The Atlantic. My visitor this week will likely be Congressman Ritchie Torres, who represents the South Bronx in the USA Home of Representatives. It’s such a pleasure and an honor to welcome Congressman Torres to this program. We’ll be discussing the competition, the battle between Democratic centrists and Democratic progressives in New York Metropolis, state, and federal politics, and we’ll discuss, as properly, about his imaginative and prescient for the long run and path of American politics, and his beliefs and ideas as he’s turn into probably the most essential voices in the USA Congress.

    I need to start with just a few preliminary remarks a couple of new Trump administration assault on press freedom and press integrity. The Wall Avenue Journal just lately launched an essential story on the private connections between Donald Trump, the non-public citizen—as he then was—and Jeffrey Epstein, the disgraced financier and intercourse trafficker who died in 2019.

    President Trump, as he now’s, responded to the story by submitting an enormous lawsuit in opposition to The Wall Avenue Journal, one in every of many lawsuits in a protracted sequence that Donald Trump has introduced in opposition to press establishments. Now, a non-public citizen who feels himself or herself ill-used by the press, after all, has a proper to sue for defamation. These fits often don’t go very far. It’s tough to win a defamation swimsuit in the USA, and other people often—whereas they could file them or threaten to file them—don’t proceed. For one factor, they stumble upon the specter of discovery, the place the information group will be capable to say, Effectively, because you’re suing us, we get to ask some questions of you, and the individual suing usually doesn’t need to reply these questions, and that’s the place the entire thing tends to interrupt down. However President Trump has approached these lawsuits in a really completely different method.

    The president of the USA—beneath Donald Trump, the presidency has turn into a really completely different form of establishment from what it ever was earlier than. It has acquired massive new immunity from felony prosecution. The Supreme Court docket of the USA has made it far more tough than it ever was to carry a president to account for felony actions dedicated by that president, or alleged felony actions dedicated by the president. The Court docket has carved out zones of immunity, during which the president merely can’t be questioned or challenged about felony exercise.

    In the meantime, Donald Trump, whereas he has all these august powers of the presidency, he’s utilizing the powers of a non-public citizen to sue in methods which can be augmented by the powers of the presidency. The fits that Donald Trump has introduced in opposition to ABC Information and CBS Information have been fits he virtually definitely was not going to win. The CBS lawsuit was significantly feeble. It was a lawsuit the place he stated he didn’t like the way in which 60 Minutes had edited an interview with Vice President Kamala Harris, and he was invoking a Texas consumer-protection statute to assault the way in which that CBS had edited this interview. Now, the courts, for 50 years, have been very clear in regards to the monumental safety of the correct to edit beneath the First Modification, and the Federal Communications Fee has made it clear they need no a part of second-guessing the editorial judgments of stories organizations. This lawsuit wouldn’t go anyplace. It’s virtually assured to not go anyplace. However CBS and ABC have company mother and father, and people company mother and father have numerous enterprise earlier than the federal authorities. Within the CBS case, the enterprise was particularly pressing. Paramount, the proprietor of CBS, needed to execute a merger that would wish FCC approval. And President Trump’s chairman of the FCC had made clear that regulatory approval may hinge on whether or not Paramount made some form of settlement with President Trump in his grievance in opposition to CBS.

    So President Trump used his regulatory powers overparent companies to squeeze settlements out of ABC and CBS. He additionally extracted a giant payday for his household from Amazon. In the beginning of the administration, Amazon introduced that it was going to make a documentary or a film in regards to the lifetime of First Woman Melania Trump and pay her hundreds of thousands and hundreds of thousands of {dollars} for the movie rights for a film that doesn’t appear like it’s ever going to see the sunshine of day, and perhaps was by no means meant to see the sunshine of day.

    So the president is immune criminally. He sues, like several non-public citizen, however his lawsuits are backed up by the regulatory energy of the federal authorities and beneath his management, exerting powers in new methods, in ways in which had by no means been contemplated earlier than by the Federal Communications Fee.

    Now President Trump is utilizing the identical maneuver in opposition to The Wall Avenue Journal. Shortly earlier than the story appeared, Vice President [J. D.] Vance made a particular journey to go to the Murdoch household and presumably, or apparently, to plead the case in opposition to the story. In order that was one other type of stress. Thus far, The Wall Avenue Journal has resisted, however how lengthy they are going to resist is unclear as a result of the dad or mum company behind The Wall Avenue Journal additionally has numerous enterprise earlier than the federal authorities, and naturally, the Murdoch household that owns the dad or mum company and President Trump have deep different causes.

    So what we’re witnessing right here is an try to make use of federal energy by a criminally immune president to snuff out dialogue of issues that bear on that president’s potential felony legal responsibility or potential civil legal responsibility.

    , abuses of energy by the president are likely to bleed one into the opposite. You begin with one thing small, like I don’t need individuals to find out about my connections to Jeffrey Epstein, and fairly quickly you’re deploying powers over the press, and also you’re abusing the FBI.

    I feel the purpose is: There’s no straightforward method out of this for any of us. And I feel this is likely one of the the reason why the Epstein story has turn into so essential. No matter is the precise reality of what occurred between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein—how deeply they have been related, or when their relationship started, when their relationship ended, what occurred in between, why it ended, how Jeffrey Epstein’s future profession, why his prosecution was dealt with in the way in which that it was, what occurred within the closing hours and moments earlier than his demise, all of these unanswered questions—in an effort to defend the current from potential revelations, we’re having to interrupt aside every kind of establishments, starting with the FBI and ending with the First Modification.

    , I feel lots of people hope there’s some method to field in or restrict the Trump presidency to deal with it like, you recognize, not one in every of one’s favourite presidents, not one in every of America’s most interesting hours, however one thing that doesn’t threaten to do great and everlasting injury to the construction of American authorities. However as this newest story reveals, even in probably the most intimate and private points of his life, Donald Trump’s wants and imperatives, and his angle towards the presidency are a risk to each American establishment.

    If we’re going to return out of this unscathed, we’re going to should have an actual reckoning with what Donald Trump did. We’re not going to have the ability to field this in. We’re not going to have the ability to say, Effectively, that was then, and that is now, or That is his private life, or These are his private issues. For him, there is no such thing as a barrier between the private and the constitutional. And for the reverse, there’s no barrier for individuals who need to defend the Structure in opposition to the individual of Donald Trump. It’s going to be one, or it’s going to be the opposite. And that scenario—right here we’re on the very starting of the second Trump presidency, and it’s solely more likely to turn into extra intense as that presidency continues.

    Now my dialogue with Congressman Torres, and we’ll be speaking about a few of these exact same points in that dialog. I hope you’ll proceed to observe. However first, a fast break.

    [Music]

    Frum: Consultant Ritchie Torres is a local of the Bronx, New York. His first introduction to the ugly realities of New York Metropolis politics got here at an early age. Congressman Torres grew up the kid of a single mom in a public-housing undertaking. The mildew within the house unit infected his childhood bronchial asthma, however throughout the way in which, he may see the town of New York pouring hundreds of thousands of {dollars} of taxpayer cash into subsidies for a golf course.

    I don’t assume he’s ever fairly forgotten that lesson. Congressman Torres’s outrage over the misuse of public sources on this method powered his early rise, his astonishingly early rise, in metropolis politics. He was elected to New York Metropolis Council on the age of 25: the primary overtly homosexual council member from the Bronx. He gained election to Congress from New York’s Fifteenth District in 2022, age solely 32. The Fifteenth is likely one of the nation’s poorest districts, and Consultant Torres has labored arduous on the bread-and-butter points that matter most to his constituents, turning into a number one voice for the Democratic pragmatic city middle in opposition to the extremes of far left and much proper.

    A champion of civil liberties in each type, Torres has turn into one in every of Congress’s handiest and untiring voices in opposition to anti-Semitism and the defamation of the state of Israel. At a time when Democrats are questioning their future, Congressman Torres has supplied probably the most fearless and forcefully argued visions of a method ahead.

    So I’m very happy and grateful to welcome Congressman Torres to The David Frum Present. Thanks for becoming a member of us.

    Ritchie Torres: All the time a pleasure to be right here.

    Frum: I need to ask you about one thing I’ve heard you say in a variety of your interviews, the place you say the Democratic middle has acquired this passive character. The Democratic far left feels it might say no matter it likes. The Democratic middle retires and reserves. It jogs my memory in some methods of what occurred within the Republican Get together, my get together, through the Tea Get together rebellion, when Republican moderates simply yielded the ground. What’s going on? Why? Is it a character challenge? Is it an ideological challenge? Why is the middle so retiring?

    Torres: Effectively, look—in politics, depth is future. And it’s virtually inherently the case that an intensely seen vocal minority could have outsized political energy, extra political energy than a silent majority that largely resides within the middle. And so it appears like American politics writ massive is dominated by the extremes, by the far proper and the far left and the symbiosis between the 2. And there’s a way during which the far left is a response—the fashionable far left, the brand new left—is a response to Donald Trump. I’d undergo you that there could be no trendy far left with out the election of Donald Trump in 2016. , it’s Newton’s legal guidelines of physics at work: Each motion produces an equal and reverse response. And it appears like American politics is essentially pushed by the limitless suggestions loop between the 2 extremes in American politics.

    Frum: Yeah. Effectively, let me draw an analogy to the Republican Get together previous to the politics that I do know finest. I bear in mind I labored a very long time in the past for President George W. Bush, and there was a giant invoice arising, and there was an essential Republican vote that President Bush wanted. And the vote was shy as a result of this voter, this member of the Home or member of the Senate, this member of Congress, was nervous in regards to the vote. And President Bush requested, What do you want from me to win your vote? Give me a request. Give me an ask, one thing I can say sure to. Is there something I can do to provide you a member to get your vote? And the senator stated, Sure, I want you to ensure that there are 70 votes in favor of this proposition. In different phrases, he didn’t care what the invoice stated as long as he might be a member of a herd. I typically ponder whether, is it that these persons are moderates or they’re simply fearful?

    Torres: It appears like, ought to we rename the reasonable class “miscellaneous”? Like, I really feel if you happen to have been to ask me, “What does the far proper stand for?” I may simply say it’s “America First.” It’s “Make America nice once more.” It’s “Construct the wall,” proper? There are easy, repeatable phrases that distill the worldview of the far proper. And if you happen to would ask me, “What does the far left stand for?” Inexperienced New Deal, Medicare for All. There are easy phrases that distill the worldview of the far left. I couldn’t let you know what the middle stands for. Like, if you happen to have been to talk to 100 center-left Democrats, you’d get 100 completely different responses about what the middle left stands for. And I see that lack of readability of communication as an actual problem for the get together.

    Similar to the Democratic Get together can not merely stand in opposition to Donald Trump, We’ve got to face for one thing. The middle left can not merely stand in opposition to the far left: It has to face for one thing. And if the perfect the middle left has to supply is Andrew Cuomo and Eric Adams, then that’s a problem that we’re going to have hassle connecting with the following technology of voters.

    Frum: Effectively, an excellent scholar of the politics of New York, Fred Siegel, wrote a guide about Rudy Giuliani earlier than his tragic later years during which he stated that the key of Rudy Giuliani’s success through the interval when he was profitable was that he was an excessive centrist—that’s, he had centrist politics, however not a reasonable character in any respect, not even then. And he was forceful. He was sure. He drove his factors dwelling. He was not afraid. Is that the answer? Excessive centrism?

    Torres: I assumed Giuliani was a vicious individual. So there’s something to be stated for decency. I’ve profound variations of opinion with a candidate like Zohran Mamdani, however I’m capable of separate my appreciation for his ability from my disagreements along with his politics—not everybody could make that emotional separation, however I can—and I’ve to say, I used to be impressed with the way during which he ran his marketing campaign. I noticed him marketing campaign within the Northeast Bronx just a few weeks in the past, and he was endlessly smiling. He was visibly having fun with the act of campaigning, the act of interacting with individuals. I really feel like we are able to all study from that. Like, we must always all undertaking the enjoyment of public service, the enjoyment of campaigning. Like, I choose that to the viciousness and nastiness of Rudy Giuliani within the Nineties.

    Frum: Effectively, look—politics, like each occupation, has issues it’s important to do and stuff you do much less. And I usually do see individuals in politics, and I feel, Why didn’t you select, like, accountancy? I imply, you’re keen on numbers; you hate individuals. Why did you select this line of labor? There are numerous issues you are able to do together with your one and solely life. So I imply, politics is for individuals who like going right into a room stuffed with whole strangers and grabbing palms and introducing themselves and making buddies quick. And if you happen to don’t like that work, there are numerous different helpful, invaluable issues you are able to do together with your time on this Earth.

    Torres: Look—for me, loving public service and loving individuals go hand in hand and you can not have one with out the opposite. Look—there are moments after we could be in a foul temper, and we’ve got hectic moments, however it’s essential to undertaking, at each second, the enjoyment of public service as a result of it’s actually an honor to be a public servant within the biggest nation on Earth.

    Now, I signify 800,000 individuals, proper? I get to vote on behalf of and communicate on behalf of 800,000 individuals, and that’s an honor that I take to coronary heart each day. And for me, it’s simply the best gratification of my life as a result of it occurs to be the world the place I grew up. And so once you hold that perspective in thoughts, it ought to encourage you to undertaking the enjoyment of public service and the enjoyment of campaigning.

    Frum: Effectively, let me press you a bit tougher, with out going into personalities, with this contest between completely different visions of the Democratic Get together. In 2016 and 2020, there have been nationwide contests—Hillary Clinton versus Bernie Sanders, after which Joe Biden in opposition to the sphere—during which there have been far-left pressures and form of old style, older, from-a-different-time candidates who spoke from a extra reasonable method however didn’t all the time communicate very forcefully. And the competition hung within the stability, and the individuals who made the distinction have been form of older, extra spiritual, extra conservative Black voters who pushed the Democratic Get together away from unelectable progressivism towards Hillary Clinton in 2016 and towards Biden in 2020. And I don’t understand how a lot credit score you give to the state of South Carolina particularly and to any individual there, however that does appear to have been the second the place Biden gained—and possibly the election of 2020 was gained.

    One of many issues I’ve observed since 2024 is the way in which that these sorts of voters—older Black voters, churchgoers, individuals with a stake in the neighborhood—they appear to be form of discounted. I’ll offer you two knowledge factors which have struck me. First, there have been a few polls which have confirmed Pete Buttigieg in first place as a Democratic selection for president in 2028, which is okay; he’s a really spectacular individual. However once you have a look at, okay, Effectively, what’s Pete Buttigieg’s assist within the Black group? and the reply is zero, in accordance with these polls—like, actually zero—you assume, Okay, how do you get to be in first place in a Democratic choice ballot when Black voters are saying, “Not our man?” And within the current Democratic major within the metropolis of New York, the candidate who gained was the candidate who did worst amongst Black voters. The candidates who did properly amongst Black voters each misplaced. Is the Democratic Get together turning its again on these form of reasonable Black voters? What does that imply? Why is that taking place? What does that imply?

    Torres: Look—it’s definitely true that the strongholds of the Democratic Socialists of America, of the left, in locations like New York are typically college-educated, white-progressive or white Democratic Socialist neighborhoods. In New York Metropolis, it’s the gentrified neighborhoods of Queens and Brooklyn and Manhattan, not a lot Staten Island and the Bronx. In order that’s definitely true. And people voters are typically far more ideological, far more left leaning.

    Older Black voters, I discover, are typically extra relational than ideological of their voting. And—

    Frum: As Jim Clyburn stated, “Joe is aware of us.”

    Torres: Yeah. , there’s an excellent joke about Jim Clyburn that J. C. doesn’t stand for Jesus Christ; it stands for “Jim Clyburn” as a result of he was the one driving power behind the resurrection of Joe Biden within the 2020 Democratic major. However, you recognize, it’s usually stated that familiarity breeds contempt. On the subject of older Black voters, the other is true: Familiarity breeds consolation. Like, Black voters have been extra comfy with [Andrew] Cuomo as a result of he was a well-known model identify. However I’d not mistake a choice for a well-known model identify like Andrew Cuomo for opposition to Mamdani. As Mamdani turns into extra acquainted in Democratic circles, he definitely is able to construct assist throughout the African American group.

    However there’s a generational divide. , older African People are likely to gravitate towards extra acquainted model names like Cuomo; youthful African People could also be extra left leaning and ideological of their politics. So there’s a generational divide unfolding throughout the Democratic Get together.

    Frum: However is there one thing happening between these ideological, extremely educated voters you talked about and everyone else? So there was this nice upsurge of protests in 2020 centered in Black America the place it gave the impression of Black People—as a non-Black American, it sounded to me like they’re saying, What we wish is truthful and respectful policing. And numerous the individuals who joined up for this motion who have been from completely different communities, who have been extremely educated, stated, Proper. What you imply is you need no policing in any respect. And the individuals on the middle have been saying, No, we wish truthful and respectful policing, however we truly would really like—whether it is truthful and respectful—extra of it, not much less. And this is likely one of the issues that within the New York major, that I feel one of many massive points between individuals who stated, We wish extra policing; we wish it truthful and respectful, however we wish extra. And people who stated, Proper, what you imply is you need much less, and we all know higher, and we’re telling you.

    Torres: Look—I’m one of many main critics of the DSA, and my frustration with the DSA is the dearth of self-awareness. There appears to be no acknowledgement that Democratic Socialists are completely different from a lot of the nation, together with most Democratic working-class individuals of shade in locations just like the Bronx. And, you recognize, you’re entitled to imagine no matter you want, however you shouldn’t faux that your beliefs are orthodoxy or the mainstream in America. I bear in mind, once I would experience the subway as a child, I’d usually come throughout a quote that learn By no means mistake your visual view for the world. And I really feel just like the DSA usually errors its visual view for the world, and it usually speaks for individuals of shade with out truly chatting with them, as a result of if you happen to spoke to individuals of shade in locations just like the Bronx, you’d notice there was by no means common assist for actions like “Defund the police” and that there have been widespread considerations in regards to the destabilizing influence of the migrant disaster on cities like New York. And so there’s a lack of ideological self-awareness on the a part of the DSA. The DSA is entitled to have no matter beliefs it needs, however these beliefs are completely different from these not solely of most People, however most Democrats.

    Now, the one challenge the place each Democrat is aligned is the priority in regards to the affordability disaster. And the genius of the Mamdani marketing campaign lies in focusing like a laser on the affordability disaster, as a result of it’s actually the difficulty that has probably the most resonance with most voters. Not everybody agrees on the answer, however everybody agrees—within the Democratic Get together, and even past—that it’s turn into the central problem confronting the town and the nation.

    Frum: Effectively, I’m unsure you’re entitled to say you’re—properly, suppose I say this: Right here I’m. I’m a politician. I’m from the Democratic Socialists of America, and I’m very involved in regards to the affordability disaster. Actually? Are you? That’s nice. Effectively, what’s your resolution? My resolution is these magic wishing beans I’ve in my pocket. Aren’t I entitled to say, In case your resolution is magic wishing beans, you’re most likely truly not that revved up in regards to the disaster, as a result of if you happen to cared, you’d search for a greater concept than magic wishing beans?

    Torres: Can I problem—you’re placing me within the place of defending the DSA, which is making me uncomfortable. Do you assume the typical institution Democrat has a thought-out resolution to the affordability disaster? Do you assume the typical politician thinks deeply about cost-benefit analyses and trade-offs and unintended penalties that don’t—

    Frum: You don’t have to assume very deeply in regards to the affordability of housing in New York to say—

    Torres: That’s my frustration, although.

    Frum: You say, Okay, what we have to do is usher in a bunch of individuals from the business and say, What wouldn’t it take to get you to construct 1 / 4 of one million items within the 5 boroughs of New York per yr? What would we’ve got to alter so that you can construct 1 / 4 of one million? After which they’d offer you an inventory of a bunch of concepts, and also you say, Effectively, I can’t do this one, however yeah, okay, the remainder of these we are able to do. And perhaps we gained’t get 1 / 4 of one million items a yr; perhaps we’ll get 200,000. What’s being proposed as a substitute are actually—I imply, to say what we’re going to do is take one million {dollars} of subsidy per house, and take the variety of sponsored residences we’re constructing from 10,000 a yr to twenty,000 a yr in a metropolis the place 6 million persons are making use of for housing, that’s a magic wishing bean. That’s not going to do something for anyone.

    Torres: I agree. However Eric Adams has been mayor for 4 years. Has he had that convening? I imply, it’s not sufficient for center-left Democrats to denigrate the sloganeering of the far left, which I agree is sloganeering. However we’ve got to really supply and put ahead an affordability agenda, proper? We should always not put ourselves within the place of defending a establishment that’s genuinely failing a technology of younger People. There are younger People who’re struggling to deal with the crushing value of housing and better training and health-care, and we’ve got to deal with their anxieties in regards to the affordability costs.

    I’ll simply echo what I stated earlier: It’s not sufficient for the middle left to be in opposition to the far left, to sneer at them. We truly should put ahead an affordability agenda. We’ve got to be extra introspective about our failures, to be blunt.

    Frum: Let me ask you about these failures. The Democratic Get together is true now doing a giant, supposedly, after-action overview of the 2024 election. And there are imply tales circulating, which say, Oh, however all the pieces that’s truly the questions you’d need to speak about are off the desk. We’re not going to speak about Biden staying within the race arguably too lengthy. We’re not going to speak about having or not having a major to interchange him. We’re gonna speak about all the pieces else. And it jogs my memory a bit little bit of the 2012 Republican post-mortem, the place the Republican Get together determined the answer to Romney’s defeat in 2012 was Jeb Bush. And so it bought a crew of six individuals, 4 of whom had tight connections to Jeb Bush, to put in writing a report saying, What do we’d like? And so they wrote a report that took 80 pages to say, What we’d like is Jeb Bush. And that turned out, truly, to not be the right reply, however it was very a lot the product of an in-group. And it seems just like the Democratic Get together is doing the identical factor.

    Torres: Look—I really feel like we must always acknowledge that we screwed up, after which transfer on. If we deny that there was a difficulty, it merely serves to perpetuate the story. We should always acknowledge that Biden ought to have determined early on to not run for reelection. There ought to have been a full major course of. And I occur to imagine that the American major course of—which is for much longer than the method in Britain is—is a unprecedented character-building expertise. It’s a check of character. It’s a check of resilience. And you recognize, I usually quote Frederick Nietzsche, who stated, “That which doesn’t kill [me], makes [me] stronger.” I really feel such as you’re made higher and stronger and wiser by the calls for, by the pains of the Democratic-primary course of. And that profit was denied to Kamala Harris because the Democratic nominee.

    Frum: Is that proper? As a result of—I’m not a Democrat; I’m observing from exterior—however the Democratic Get together appears to be a household that may’t talk about its enterprise in nondestructive methods. And there’s sure households the place you say, Possibly household remedy is definitely not the correct possibility for you, since you’ll kill one another.

    So I imply, let’s see how this is able to work. Supposing President Biden had carried out the patriotic factor and stated after the election of 2022, We’ve had this extraordinary lead to 2022, a lot better than anyone had cause to count on. I take that as my private vindication. I’m saying myself the winner right here, and I’m now going to gracefully exit the stage, and I’m declaring an open major. What would’ve occurred? Effectively, individuals would’ve stated, Oh, you’re betraying the Black girl. Why wasn’t the Black girl you picked ok? Whereas there could be solutions to these questions, no Democrat would simply be capable to articulate what the explanations have been.

    And then you definitely flip right into a combat of, you recognize, when Democrats argue, they don’t argue about concepts. They don’t argue about, even, personalities. They argue about classes. You’re a homophobe. You’re anti-Black girl. You’re anti-this. You’re anti-rural, anti—and they’d’ve simply ripped themselves to items in a massacre, which might’ve left the get together in arguably even worse form in 2024 than it truly was.

    Torres: I’m unsure about that. I really feel if we had extra time for a full major course of, we might’ve had a full course of, and we might’ve revered—we’ve got Democratic primaries the place you’ve got quite a lot of individuals from each background run, and we conduct these primaries constructively. And infighting shouldn’t be distinctive to the Democratic Get together. There’s no scarcity of infighting within the Republican Get together. And admittedly, I’ll argue that we handle our infighting extra successfully than the Republicans do, simply judging by the overwhelming dysfunction of the Republican Home. I imply, we didn’t vacate our speaker. We didn’t undergo 15 rounds of voting—I overlook the precise quantity—the longest vote in 150 years. For all of our infighting, ours is far more manageable than what I’m seeing on the opposite aspect of the aisle.

    Frum: Let me ask you a private query. You’re too modest to say this your self, however you didn’t go to school. And my spouse, who additionally didn’t go to school, likes to work it into the dialog early. (Laughs.) However you don’t do this. However does that offer you a bonus? As a result of one of many issues I discover in regards to the Democratic world is there’s this jargon of the college that works itself into every kind of bizarre—they’ve conversations. They’ve conversations in areas. They communicate from positions of privilege. They belong to sure classes. And none of that is the way in which anybody spoke English 15 years in the past, and it’s the primary language of the Democratic Get together. Have you ever form of acquired immunity to that due to your biography?

    Torres: , it’s simply my nature to talk merely to the extent that I can. Like, simply say somebody’s hungry reasonably than meals insecure, or say somebody is, you recognize, incarcerated reasonably than justice-involved. I exploit a language that’s acquainted to on a regular basis individuals reasonably than a language that originates from the academy.

    However I attribute my pragmatism to a scarcity of a faculty diploma. If I had graduated from school, I most likely, satirically, could be extra ideological in my politics and, I really feel like, truly much less in tune with Economics 101.

    Frum: Alright, properly, let me get you again to this query of Economics 101, as a result of housing is the supreme challenge in your metropolis, and there are individuals who imagine that if you happen to construct extra housing, housing will turn into extra obtainable. There are individuals who assume if you happen to construct extra housing, you merely put cash into the palms of individuals we hate who’re criminals and who should be expropriated and run out of city. How do you’ve got a dialog between individuals who maintain these two views?

    Torres: I imply, I disagree with the second view. For me, it’s not a morality story; it’s economics. Now, there are definitely unscrupulous landlords who should be held accountable, however on the core of the affordability disaster is a spot between provide and demand. The demand for reasonably priced housing far exceeds the provision. So we’ve got to construct sufficient housing to fulfill the demand, and we’ve got to make sure that the housing we construct is reasonably priced to the lowest-income households who are sometimes left behind by housing coverage in cities like New York. And I’m a proponent of the abundance motion, which, you recognize, to me is a problem for the Democratic Get together. If Republicans purport to be the get together of much less authorities, we as Democrats shouldn’t be the get together of extra authorities. We needs to be the get together of higher, cheaper, and quicker authorities. And we’ve got to discover ways to construct higher, cheaper, and quicker, and larger.

    And there must be introspection. Why is it that Texas builds extra reasonably priced housing than New York? I feel Houston builds 20 items per 1,000 residents; Austin, 10 items per 1,000 residents; New York, fewer than 4 items per 1,000 residents. So cities like Houston and Austin are outbuilding New York by orders of magnitude. Why is it that Texas, reasonably than New York, has emerged because the photo voltaic superpower of America? One of many merciless ironies of our time is that the states—it’s simpler to construct clean-energy infrastructure within the states that deny local weather change than it’s within the states that think about it an emergency. So I really feel just like the abundance motion is a problem, is an invite for Democrats to essentially reimagine what it means to manipulate progressively.

    And progressive governance needs to be outlined by precise progress. It needs to be outlined not by extra spending, however by extra provide. What issues ultimately shouldn’t be solely extra housing spending—I’m in favor of extra housing spending—but in addition increasing the precise provide of housing in order that extra individuals have entry to properties.

    Frum: There’s a traditional novel about American city politics known as The Final Hurrah. And in The Final Hurrah, a younger man is being groomed to run for mayor of Boston, and he’s given introductions to this side of metropolis politics and this side of metropolis politics. After which lastly, his coaches say to him, Now we come to an important half: overseas coverage. And he says, Overseas coverage? Effectively, why do I want any overseas coverage to be mayor of Boston? They are saying, Don’t fear. It’s not that tough. You simply want to recollect two sentences: “Trieste belongs to Italy, and all Eire shall be free.” That’s it.

    And there appears to be one thing like that happening in New York, the place one of many flash factors between you and the Democratic Socialists of America is Gaza, which isn’t one of many 5 boroughs. And isn’t solely the flashpoint, however virtually, like Trieste and Eire, the one one. They’re this world stuffed with sophisticated, harrowing issues that People gained’t even examine, not to mention develop an opinion about.

    Right here’s this one flashpoint: Do you ever discover there’s one thing form of arbitrary and weird about the way in which that overseas coverage does and doesn’t contact the politics of New York Metropolis?

    Torres: Sure and no. If you’re Dominican, the Dominican Republic shouldn’t be a overseas nation; it’s an essential a part of who you’re, proper? In case you’re Irish, Eire is a vital a part of who you’re. And if you happen to’re Jewish—it’s not true of each Jew, however it’s true of many, perhaps most—that Israel is a vital a part of Jewish id. So we’re a hyphenated nation. We’re a rustic the place we love not solely America, however we love the nation of our ancestors, as properly, proper? And that’s a part of the American story. So in that sense, it is sensible to me. Like, regardless that Puerto Rico is a territory of the USA, I care deeply about Puerto Rico as a result of I’m Puerto Rican. It’s the house of my ancestry.

    However it’s unusual. So I’ll offer you an instance of how it may be unusual. In the summertime of 2020, the New York Metropolis Democratic Socialists of America despatched out a questionnaire to city-council candidates, and the questionnaire had a foreign-policy part—by no means thoughts that the town council performs no position in setting overseas coverage—and the foreign-policy part solely had two questions. Query No. 1: Do you pledge by no means to journey to Israel if elected to the town council? Query No. 2: Do you assist the boycott, divestment, and sanctions motion in opposition to Israel?

    So within the Democratic Socialist worldview, it’s morally permissible to journey to China, which has dedicated genocide in opposition to Uyghur Muslims; to journey to Russia, which invaded a sovereign nation-state like Ukraine; to journey to Iran, which is the main state sponsor of terrorism. However journey to the world’s solely Jewish state, that’s strictly forbidden. And that, to me, is an instance of how anti-Zionism can morph right into a type of anti-Semitism.

    Frum: The 2-part query is an instance that nothing has modified since—I listened to these two questions, and thought, Huh, Trieste, not there anymore.​​ What occurred to that?

    Torres: Effectively, I feel we’ve seen a radicalization of progressive politics with reference to Israel, proper? I imply, progressive politics went from embracing a two-state resolution to embracing a one-state resolution: “Free Palestine, from the river to the ocean.” It went from opposing solely offensive assist to Israel to now opposing each defensive and offensive assist to Israel, proper? It has turn into heresy to even assist Iron Dome, which exists to guard Israeli Jews and Arabs from acts of terror, from relentless rocket hearth. And earlier than October 7, a strong case might be made that Iron Dome was an efficient mechanism for deescalating the Israeli-Palestinian battle.

    Frum: Do you assume the tendency to polarization and radicalism might be undone? If we get favorable social circumstances, like a slowdown in inflation and a pickup in wage development; if the Trump administration is changed by one thing extra provocative; if the Democrats do properly sufficient in 2026 that the most-progressive members get remoted, they usually should play good in the event that they need to be influential as a substitute of being a part of a really slender majority, the place they’re wanted—can this stuff be unwound, or do you assume there’s one thing deeper in our society that’s pushing politics towards these ever-more-extreme views?

    Torres: I’m conflicted. I don’t know. A part of me says sure, and a part of me says no. A part of me says polarization is inevitable as a result of the perverse incentive construction of our politics rewards polarization. It rewards political theater. It rewards the extremes. , if you happen to’re on the extremes, whether or not you’re the far left or the far proper, you’re going to generate way more fundraising on-line. You’re going to generate extra publicity from cable information and discuss radio and elsewhere. You’re gonna have a a lot bigger following on social media. The member of Congress to lift probably the most within the wake of January 6 was Marjorie Taylor Greene after she voted to decertify the election.

    And so it does really feel just like the perverse incentives of our politics are conducive to extremism. And it feels just like the social-media algorithm, simply by its very nature, amplifies extremism and disinformation and outrage. In order that’s the place my concern lies.

    On the similar time, voters can have a moderating impact on political events, and if we swing the pendulum too far to the left and the voters punish us, we’ll regulate. When there was a backlash in opposition to the “Defund the police,” even the left has largely deserted it. I imply, Zohran Mamdani ran away from “Defund the police” as a result of he knew it was deeply unpopular amongst voters. The mismanagement of the migrant disaster, I felt like, had a moderating, humbling impact on the Democratic Get together on the difficulty of border safety. So I see arguments in each instructions, and I haven’t settled on what I imagine.

    Frum: You talked about these incentives, as a result of there’s an incentive that has disappeared. It’s straightforward—let’s speak about Marjorie Taylor Greene to make this simpler to grasp by wanting on the different get together. Thirty, 40, 50 years in the past, a personality like Marjorie Taylor Greene would’ve gained an election to Congress as a result of as Sam Rayburn stated, “The American individuals will elect anyone to something as soon as.” So she’s elected to Congress in 1974 or 1984. At that time, any person essential within the get together would’ve come to her and stated, Look—perhaps you’re a genuinely loopy individual, and there’s nothing anybody can do for you, however perhaps you’d wish to go to the Senate. Possibly you’d wish to be governor. And if that’s the case, you should dial again the loopy, as a result of the loopy can get you to the Home, like, as soon as, twice. It gained’t make you a committee chair within the Home, and it definitely gained’t allow you to run for anything. So when you have political ambition, you need to dial again the loopy if it’s in you to dial again the loopy.

    And the Marjorie Taylor Greene of a technology in the past, or two, would’ve had to consider that, if she have been able to desirous about it. And if she weren’t, the political system would’ve washed her away, because it washes away varied sorts of people that genuinely are mentally unbalanced who typically present up in Congress. That doesn’t appear to occur anymore, as a result of individuals in your get together and the Republican Get together say, , I might be governor, however I’d reasonably have 12 million Instagram followers.

    Torres: I feel probably the most corrosive developments in politics has been the celebritization of politics. There are rising numbers of Congress who see Congress not as an establishment, however as a stage on which to carry out, as a theatrical manufacturing. And that’s a dynamic that’s current each on the left and on the correct. However the scenario is way worse, I imagine, on the far proper, as a result of nearly all of Democrats stay within the middle, whereas I really feel like the middle proper has all however collapsed, and the Republican Get together has been lowered to nothing greater than a cult of character round Donald Trump. And Donald Trump actually represents the Freudian id of the Republican base. And he has created an environment during which conspiratorial politics can thrive. And you recognize, we’re seeing it with the—on the marketing campaign path, he spent a lot of his time stoking the fires of the Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy, and now these fires are threatening to devour his personal administration. So he’s being hoisted by his personal petard.

    Frum: Yeah. There’s something so bizarre about that story. Like, did the individuals round Trump who made it the central challenge of their politics not perceive or know that if you happen to go to the very coronary heart of the labyrinth right here, the individual you’re going to seek out is Donald Trump?

    Torres: Sure. Sure.

    Frum: I typically ponder whether—properly, Donald Trump Jr. was, like, one of many main voices on this query. I form of marvel if there’s one thing oedipal happening, that at some degree he knew that is the story, If I’m enthusiastic about it in ’21, ’22, I appear like a super-Trump loyalist, however truly, I do know at some deep degree that I’m destroying my father, whom I hate as a result of he doesn’t respect me. Is there one thing sophisticated happening there? I ponder.

    Torres: Look—I’ve no perception into the psyche of the Trump household, however right here’s what I discover unusual. , MAGA is sort of a faith that sees Donald Trump because the chosen one, proper? Donald Trump was chosen to launch the Epstein information as a type of revelation and destroy the deep state and drain the swamp. However there’s a easy downside with the narrative of Donald Trump because the savior, is: How are you going to drain the swamp if you find yourself a part of the swamp? Like, there may be actually nobody in Washington, D.C., who has nearer and longer ties to Jeffrey Epstein than Donald Trump himself. Even if you happen to ignore The Wall Avenue Journal story, in 2002 in a New York journal profile of Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump went on file praising his longstanding, 15-year relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, and stated that Epstein loves stunning girls as a lot as he does, and “a lot of them are on the youthful aspect.” He actually stated this in 2002. And so the information simply flatly contradict the notion of Donald Trump as the good savior in opposition to the Epstein-led deep state.

    Frum: Effectively, that is the place I’d wish to perhaps finish then, if you happen to’ll enable a private—in case you are keen to undertake a private word. I haven’t heard you discuss this within the interviews I’ve heard, however I’ve learn this in profiles of you, in regards to the formative expertise that, for you, that your politics start with Donald Trump as—I don’t understand how younger a boy you have been once you seemed out the window and noticed what was happening. Would you discuss a bit bit about that, your first encounter with Donald Trump and, if you happen to’re keen, the way it formed the start of your political profession?

    Torres: Yeah, so I ought to clarify the significance of public housing, as a result of public housing is the difficulty that impressed me to run for public workplace. It’s my raison d’être. It’s the difficulty that issues most to me. So I used to be born and raised within the Bronx, raised by a single mom, grew up in public housing. And in New York Metropolis, we’ve got an establishment often known as the New York Metropolis Housing Authority, NYCHA, which has endured for about 90 years. It’s the most important supplier of reasonably priced housing within the nation, homes a inhabitants of a couple of half one million individuals. And most of these individuals, together with my mom, could be homeless with out—I imply, now that I’ve means, I may defend her. However most individuals who stay in public housing could be homeless with out it. And so it’s a security web of deeply reasonably priced housing that stops homelessness—avenue homelessness—on a catastrophic scale in New York Metropolis.

    Regardless of the significance of public housing, it’s been chronically underfunded at each degree of presidency. So you’ve got kids, asthmatic kids, who’re struggling to breathe within the face of molded and leaking circumstances due to authorities disinvestment. You might have kids who’ve been poisoned by lead in their very own properties, who’ve sustained mind injury for the remainder of their lives due to authorities disinvestment. You might have senior residents who’re freezing of their properties with their boilers breaking down due to federal disinvestment. You might have disabled people who find themselves left stranded of their top-floor residences with their elevators breaking down due to federal disinvestment.

    And I grew up in circumstances of mildew and mildew leaks, and lead, with out warmth and sizzling water within the winter. And so I felt that these circumstances that I lived and that I noticed signify a humanitarian disaster that was missed by authorities. After which within the mid-2000s, the federal government—this native authorities—determined to speculate greater than $100 million in a golf course that was finally named after Donald Trump.

    I bear in mind asking myself on the time, What does it say about our society that we’re keen to speculate extra in a golf course than within the properties of individuals, of poor individuals in public housing who’re struggling to outlive? Like, that, to me, represented only a catastrophic misplacement of our priorities. And in order that was the formative expertise that impressed me to get my begin as a housing organizer after which finally take the leap of religion and run for public workplace at age 24. And I spent an entire yr doing nothing however knocking on doorways. I went into individuals’s properties; I heard their tales. And in a race of about 9 candidates, in opposition to inconceivable odds, I gained my first marketing campaign on the power of door-to-door, face-to-face campaigning, and have become the youngest elected official in New York Metropolis.

    Frum: Have you ever ever had an opportunity to speak to President Trump about his golf course?

    Torres: I’ve by no means spoken to Donald Trump in my life—no. And that will not be the primary challenge I’d deliver up if I have been to talk to him.

    Frum: There are numerous issues to speak about. I ponder whether he may even course of what you’d need to say.

    Torres: I don’t assume he cares, and he doesn’t—he doesn’t know, and he doesn’t care to know. And he doesn’t care about—you recognize, Jacob Riis famously wrote a chunk of photojournalism about How the Different Half Lives. Many of the elites of our society, together with Donald Trump, don’t care about how the “different half” lives, haven’t any idea of racially concentrated poverty in a spot just like the Bronx. It makes me cringe to hearken to Republican colleagues and the way during which—the disdainful method during which they discuss my constituents. They don’t know my constituents. I had an argument with Scott Jennings as a result of he gives the look that everybody on Medicaid is an undocumented immigrant or is a lazy 29-year-old, taking part in video video games. And I stated, Many of the nonworking inhabitants are caregivers and college students. And I can guarantee you these caregivers are working a lot tougher than you’re.

    Frum: So is that this a spot the place the middle and the left reverse themselves once more? That there’s one thing intense and private and unperformative about the way in which you method politics?

    Torres: I feel probably the most profitable elected officers are going to be those that defy the straightforward categorization. And I’m simply going to do the perfect that I can do as a public servant and let the remainder handle itself. However I see the sloganeering of the left for what it’s, however I additionally see the self-love of the institution for what it’s. I’m not going to place myself within the place of defending an institution that’s genuinely failing communities like mine.

    Frum: Congressman Torres, thanks a lot to your time at the moment.

    Torres: It was an honor to be right here.

    Frum: Bye-bye.

    [Music]

    Frum: I thank Congressman Torres for becoming a member of The David Frum Present at the moment. Thanks all for watching. I thank The Picton Gazette, whose hospitality I’m benefiting from as I file this program right here, in Picton, Ontario. I hope you’ll subscribe to this system, prefer it, share it on varied platforms. The easiest way we are able to deliver this type of content material to extra individuals is with the assistance and help of our viewers and listeners. The easiest way, after all, all the time, to assist the work of this podcast and of me and all my colleagues at The Atlantic is to subscribe to The Atlantic. I hope you’ll think about doing simply that.

    Thanks a lot for becoming a member of at the moment. I’ll see you quickly, on the following version of The David Frum [Show].

    [Music]

    Frum: This episode of The David Frum Present was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.

    I’m David Frum. Thanks for listening.



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