President Volodymyr Zelensky has not talked a lot about his assembly on the White Home because it led to acrimony on Feb. 28. He by no means anticipated to search out himself arguing with Donald Trump on tv that day, and he knew the risks of constructing the state of affairs worse by discussing it brazenly afterward. However on March 21, about three weeks after the drama within the Oval Workplace, he agreed to speak about it in an interview with TIME.
On the entrance of his thoughts going into that assembly, he says, was the peace course of President Trump had initiated. He needed to make sure that Trump understood what phrases Ukraine might settle for and what it will discover too humiliating after greater than three years of all-out warfare with Russia. He additionally needed to make Trump perceive that Vladimir Putin can’t be trusted to barter in good religion. “However, effectively, the dialog went in one other route,” he advised TIME in his workplace in Kyiv.
The full story of the Oval Workplace assembly, what led as much as it, and the way Zelensky sees the endgame on this warfare, seems on the duvet of the latest issue of the magazine.
What follows is a partial transcript of the dialog, wherein Zelensky spoke his native Ukrainian. It has been translated, condensed and edited for readability by TIME.
Thanks, Mr. President, for making time to talk with me right this moment. It was a tough night time in Kyiv. The Russian drone strikes stored me up half the night time, together with all of the air-raid alerts and anti-aircraft hearth. Do this stuff nonetheless hold you from sleeping? Or are you already accustomed to them?
It’s laborious to get used to warfare. Security, consolation, freedom in life—warfare takes all of that away. We had been using within the prepare once we heard these alerts. So sure, the warfare doesn’t let anybody sleep.
The primary goal yesterday was Odesa, the place the drone strikes had been notably intense. What does it say in regards to the peace course of that such assaults have continued virtually each night time?
[The Russians] don’t wish to finish the warfare in its present state. For [Vladimir Putin], in my opinion, the purpose is to place strain on us, on everybody. He wants to lift the temperature, to lift the stakes, to lift the strain earlier than talks start in any kind.
Just lately the U.S. determined to droop army help to Ukraine, together with the sharing of intelligence. How did that have an effect on the armed forces, particularly these within the area of Kursk?
Any suspension or pause in help definitely doesn’t do something good for us on the battlefield, and for our protection. Don’t get me improper. The state of morale at all times depends upon whether or not your companions are standing beside you. However I wouldn’t say that the freeze influenced the operation in Kursk.
Thank God the pause was not lengthy sufficient to have a elementary impression. On-line somebody wrote that they may flip off Starlink. I don’t know whether or not that’s true. However that will be very delicate, in my opinion. And naturally that pushed us to hunt alternate options. We’re engaged on that. I don’t wish to discuss it brazenly, however we’re doing it.
What do you assume was the rationale for the halt in U.S. help?
I believe Russia managed to affect some members of the White Home crew via data. Their sign to the People was that the Ukrainians don’t wish to finish the warfare, and one thing ought to be finished to pressure them. In fact, that was disinformation. It’s not true. The Russians don’t need [to end the war], and we see that now, as we’ve at all times seen it. However this case arose, most certainly, because of a scarcity of dialogue [between the U.S. and Ukraine.]
Second, I believe the People needed to show to the Russians that they’re within the center. They don’t seem to be with us. Typically, I don’t assume the American crew was hiding the truth that they wish to be mediators relatively than standing with one of many sides. We advised them, Properly, okay, if you happen to’re not on our aspect, then no less than keep within the center. So if the Russians don’t settle for the complete ceasefire that you simply proposed, we wish to see extra sanctions. They don’t have to be in place for lengthy, identical to the pause in our case wasn’t. However that you must show that. We’re actually anticipating the American aspect to take these steps.
Thus far the alternative appears to be occurring. The U.S. has pulled out of the worldwide group that was investigating Russian warfare crimes. It additionally stopped the undertaking with Yale College to trace Ukrainian youngsters that had been kidnapped into Russia. How do you interpret these steps?
Once more, I believe they wish to present that they’re within the center, and which means they will get behind Ukraine’s strategies, or they will get behind these of Russia. They’re demonstrating that. As for what penalties or outcomes will come out of this, sadly we are able to’t foresee that right this moment.
Throughout the Oval Workplace assembly on Feb. 28, you tried to make the case that the U.S. is your ally, not only a mediator. You even introduced a set of images of Ukrainian prisoners of warfare that you simply confirmed to President Trump. Why did you resolve to try this?
To start with I needed to indicate not solely the results of warfare, but in addition an important issues, with which I’d start the plan to finish the warfare. It’s not about some political steps, no. It’s about individuals. [For the Russians] individuals are like rubbish. That’s a reality. And that’s what I needed to show. Aside from that, I do know that in any negotiations there’ll at all times be questions of NATO, territory, and issues like that. However we by no means get round to the query of individuals… I at all times say, simply give me a couple of minutes to inform you about my precedence: the individuals, the prisoners. But it surely’s at all times very laborious to get round to that. In order that’s why I began with it.
It appears you had been additionally attempting to achieve Trump on the extent of human values, empathy. Do you discover that works with him?
I believe he’s a human being. He has household, family members, youngsters. He has to really feel the issues that each particular person feels. We talked to him in regards to the [abducted] youngsters that we wish to deliver house. And we’re having a variety of bother doing that.
For my part it’s solely a query of sure leaders who can merely strain Putin to return the youngsters. Trump is one in all them. There’s no different means. Not as a commerce, as a result of we don’t dwell in another century. It’s not like shopping for them out of slavery. It’s tough even to lift this query: how do you make trades with youngsters? For whom? For what? Slowly we’re getting them again, however total it’s tough. What I needed to indicate had been my values. However, effectively, then the dialog went in one other route.
When did you begin to really feel that the dialog within the Oval Workplace had gone improper? What went via your thoughts?
Earlier than the journalists arrived, we had a traditional dialog. I advised him I needed to speak about this, that and the third — about prisoners of warfare, in regards to the first steps to ending the warfare. We have now a plan, and we discuss this plan with the Europeans. But it surely’s a primary draft: With out [Trump] we don’t see a plan to finish the warfare. It could be a assure of safety, however with out America. I needed to have a severe, particular dialog with him. With the journalists we had been meant to have solely a few of the primary subjects, say, and a few questions, if somebody needed that. After which we had been meant to maintain going. We had a variety of issues to speak about. It was alleged to be one on one. However we didn’t fairly get to the tip.
Do you could have any regrets from that assembly?
I believe this case will not be within the service of our alliance.
I used to be in Kyiv when this assembly occurred, and the individuals I spoke to had a variety of respect for the way in which you acted. Your approval scores additionally spiked afterward. Why is that? What did Ukrainians see in that assembly that others might not have?
Why did the Ukrainians defend themselves at first of this warfare? It was due to dignity. We have now the appropriate to that. We’re regular individuals. We don’t take into account ourselves some type of superpower. However we don’t wish to be handled in an undignified means. I believe such issues at all times united Ukrainians. There are small issues, sadly, that divide us. I believe that’s our damaging aspect. However there are optimistic issues about this nation. Our individuals are very emotional, and when it involves our sense of dignity, freedom, democracy, our individuals stand up and unite.
It’s not a query of how issues might have sounded. It’s a query of the Ukrainians eager to see the US as an ally, which, in my opinion, the US at all times was for us and continues to be. However in that second there was the sense of not being allies, or not taking the place of an ally. And that’s a query of Ukrainian dignity. In that dialog, I used to be defending the dignity of Ukraine.
Exterior Ukraine, individuals usually fail to grasp how delicate you’re to the views of Ukrainians. Are you able to clarify what position that issue performs for you within the peace course of? For instance, does it restrict what you can conform to in a peace settlement, if the Ukrainian individuals don’t help it?
To start with, I don’t assume that I’d conform to one thing like that. I don’t have an strategy totally different to that of my individuals. I signify the individuals. I really feel that and I perceive that. I’m a citizen of Ukraine. On this state of affairs, I believe what has already been finished is already a giant historic compromise. Lifting Putin’s political isolation—that’s a giant compromise. Think about releasing Hitler from his political isolation. It could most likely be unimaginable.
We’re speaking a couple of ceasefire, and we perceive who we’re coping with. It’s just like the story when a terrorist takes over a financial institution, and folks perceive that they will’t inform him right away: ‘Come out of there! Launch all of the individuals, go away the cash behind.’ Professionals perceive how you must begin a dialog like that. It’s about compromising for the sake of individuals. And right here it’s the identical. It’s for the sake of individuals, the people who find themselves on the entrance. And for the sake of all individuals when all is alleged and finished.
Everybody says, OK, we’re going to speak a couple of ceasefire with no preconditions. That’s a giant compromise, however [Putin] doesn’t go for that. That’s the issue. We wish to use the language of diplomacy with him, however he by no means realized this language. He speaks a unique language. Not as a result of he’s unfamiliar with diplomacy. He understands it as an instrument. However he’s towards dialogue. He’s not a person of dialogue. He’s a person of ultimatums.
It strikes me that, within the peace course of thus far, because the U.S. has pursued it beneath Trump, the carrots are reserved for Russia, whereas the Ukrainians get the stick. Is that how you could have felt?
[Laughs] Properly, look, if the carrot is poisoned, then thank God. Perhaps that’s the sneakiness of this diplomacy… I believe that if the American administration would take stronger steps, then Putin would have a greater response. The Russians would reply extra shortly. I believe that, as quickly as Trump returned to the presidency, the tempo of his reactions was very fast and surprising. His rhetoric, his statements. I believe at that second the Russians obtained actually scared. When he began speaking about sanctions, about his different steps. His strikes are very surprising for them. And for them something surprising is worrying.
Within the lengthy sport, the Russians are pretty sturdy. They’ve an authoritarian system. Underneath authoritarianism every thing is official. It’d transfer slowly, but it surely strikes. However swift actions are one other story. That’s why I really feel we shouldn’t have sufficient sturdy, swift actions.
As a part of the peace course of Trump initiated, it appears all we see from the Russians proper now are calls for from Putin and members of this crew, the identical we heard at first of the warfare: de-militarization of Ukraine, “de-Nazification,” for NATO to retreat from Europe. Why is that?
The Russians are negotiating, setting the bar on the most degree, in order that they’ve some room later to retreat. As we all know from historical past, from books, [Putin] has no real interest in ending the warfare in any respect. The warfare will develop into a legal responsibility to him when his economic system faces the utmost losses. Proper now he nonetheless has time. But it surely most likely depends upon the energy of sanctions. I believe the People can reduce the time he has utilizing sturdy sanctions. From the evaluation I’ve seen, Putin’s economic system might be in bother in 2026 or ’27. We don’t know what reserves he has. However the dates are fairly clear. So I’d really matter on sturdy steps, sanctions and numerous army steps.
Thus far now we have seen different steps from the Trump administration. For instance, on the third anniversary of the Russian invasion, the U.S. voted with Russia and North Korea within the United Nations. What did you assume while you noticed that?
They’re exhibiting that they’re within the center. However I believe that performs to the good thing about the Russians.
Have you ever tried expressing that to Trump? How does he react to such arguments?
Due to the media, to journalists, I current these arguments. Once we speak with President Trump, it seems just a little totally different, as a result of we speak in regards to the realities that we are able to create proper now. For instance, we discuss methods to achieve a ceasefire. And there I defined to him that the Russians [have not surrounded Ukrainian troops] in Kursk. I’m very glad that the establishments labored, and that the CIA confirmed there is no such thing as a encirclement within the Kursk area. They formally confirmed that data. [The encirclement] might have occurred if we had advised the troops to go deeper, past the bounds that had been ready. We might by no means have mentioned that. In order that was unverified data. However the Russians mentioned, ‘Look, tomorrow we’re going to destroy them!’ For what? In order that Trump would inform Putin to cease. So the Russians perceive what to say to the People.
And the response was clear. Trump printed a press release on social media, saying that he’s attempting to save lots of 1000’s of surrounded Ukrainian troopers.
Sure, as a result of he was advised a falsehood.
Let’s discuss attainable situations for the way the warfare will finish. In a current interview I had with Petr Pavel, the president of the Czech Republic, who visited you right here in Kyiv yesterday, he advised me to think about a number of situations as precedents. For instance, the Soviet occupation of the Baltic states, which went on for many years. Or the thirty eighth parallel on the Korean Peninsula. Whenever you think about the battle line after a future peace settlement, does it seem like any of those historic examples? How do you see it?
You’ll be able to see for your self that each one of those dividing traces are totally different in each case. In Berlin, for instance, there was a line within the type of a wall, and you understand how that ended. The explanations are at all times totally different. What appears essential to me in these traces is that they don’t seem to be everlasting. In instances the place they final a very long time, there may be battle all over the place. There may be warfare or frozen battle that results in army actions of varied sorts. It’s at all times been that means.
So I advised President Trump: Do we wish many Berlins? I mentioned that, once we divide individuals, there might be no peace in these cities, and in the end they’ll all return to the aspect that was proper all alongside. From the perspective of worldwide regulation, we’re in the appropriate, and every thing will return to Ukraine. It’s a matter of time, and a query of how many individuals might want to undergo hell. That’s the worth.
You mentioned not too long ago that the Armed Forces of Ukraine are your nation’s finest safety assure. What’s your evaluation of how lengthy they will maintain out with out the assistance of your companions, the People, the Europeans?
It depends upon our potential to rotate the troops. If there’s a ceasefire, some type of pause, how lengthy can the military maintain out? So long as obligatory. However they want relaxation, rotation, reserves, salaries. That’s an actual drawback, I believe, as a result of the military was at all times smaller than it’s now. And when the military is 3 times greater than it was, then it must be financed. The finances of Ukraine is not going to be sufficient. There have to be separate packages. Europe must finance it. Ideally Europe and America. However within the current circumstances I’d rely extra on Europe. They honestly imagine, and it’s true, that our military is a part of the safety of all of Europe. That’s a reality. Our individuals is not going to run away if one other warfare kicks off. Whereas Europe, normally, will not be able to act like that.
What do you count on to occur if Russia violates the ceasefire time and again?
We don’t even have one but. However ever since 2014, they continually broke the peace. Right here’s the way in which I see it. They’re going to violate it on a regular basis. That’s the reason the window of alternative may be very quick between the purpose when now we have a ceasefire, and the purpose at which we attain a deal to finish the warfare. It needs to be a really quick interval. One month, two, three, and that’s it. After that it will likely be a query of morale inside the army. We have 800,000 at arms.
It’s not simply in regards to the funds. If we don’t have an settlement to finish the warfare, it turns into a frozen battle. And we are able to’t simply hold residing in a state of warfare. We have to open the borders. We have to liberalize many issues. And we are able to do this if we signal an settlement. If the interval between the ceasefire and the settlement will not be lengthy, then we might solely see a number of violations right here and there. That might not be a complete collapse. But when the method drags on, it’ll all disintegrate many occasions over. And we don’t know the way that may finish.
If we do see an settlement, the post-war interval might be extraordinarily laborious. There might be a demographic disaster, the issue of reconstruction, infrastructure, the wants of veterans, and plenty of different issues apart from. How do you see your self on this interval? In what position? And have you ever been tempted to achieve this level, to signal the settlement, after which stroll away out of your place as president?
Crucial factor for me is to search out an settlement that may unify the nation relatively than dividing it. That needs to be an settlement on a simply peace. Almost certainly we can have the sorts of challenges you simply talked about. But it surely’s crucial for this settlement to unify the nation. Then the nation will be capable of resolve the following query, which is the query of easy methods to rebuild in a good means. I believe we’ll see a surge in morale. The necessity to rebuild is not going to be an issue, however the reverse. We are going to know that now we have saved the nation, saved our independence, and now we are able to construct all of it again. And that might be a extremely large supply of positivity. We can have discovered the social contract on the place issues stand and the way the warfare ended. Then, on the subject of the demographic query, if now we have this optimistic second to inspire us, then individuals will return.
If the times after the warfare is not going to be gray however vibrant, then we’ll see ourselves rising. There might be funding, amongst different issues. Then it is not going to matter the place I might be. Truthfully. I believe that when the individuals really feel that updraft, then the individuals are extra essential than any position that politicians play. As a result of the individuals are those who can deliver us again to life. In these circumstances, management is extra like administration, relatively than within the tough occasions, when the nation wants a frontrunner. But when the following section might be a pressured peace, a humiliating one, if Ukraine, God forbid, might be left on her personal, and if our companions, for no matter purpose, is not going to be companions to us, then Ukraine will fall right into a melancholy. She can have fought for everybody and ended up alone.
However once more, how do you see your self in that darkish state of affairs? Whenever you think about that, how do you see your position?
I don’t imagine it will likely be like that. It could be a betrayal on the a part of our companions. And I believe the probabilities of that taking place are virtually zero. As a result of then we would want to confess the lack of NATO, the EU, Europe, above all America and all of its present leaders. All leaders are totally different, however they’ve their very own ambitions. They see their position in historical past. A lot of them are not younger. They wish to enter historical past as leaders who had success. That’s why I don’t imagine in these apocalyptic situations. Truthfully I don’t.
