Patrick Oliver Jones:
There may be an unparalleled magic with regards to musical theater. It is this unimaginable world the place tales simply leap off the stage, the place feelings soar into songs and every efficiency you see on any given night time is a one in every of a sort occasion. As a result of not like these completely edited films or TV reveals that we watch, a stay musical unfolds proper there in entrance of our eyes with an incredible vitality that bounces between the stage and the viewers. Take into consideration the present come from away, the place the actors seamlessly swap between roles, accents and costumes proper there on the stage, remodeling the set with just some chairs. And musical theater has advanced from its early days of operettas and vaudeville by means of the unimaginable golden age of Broadway and after which into the rock operas and numerous tales now we have now. And thru all of it, musical theater continues to reflect and even form our tradition with every new technology of writers and composers.
Joseph Zellnik:
Hello, I’m Joseph Zelnick and I used to be born in New York and I stay in Queens in New York now. So I assume I am a New York boy and I’m a musical theater composer in addition to an writer.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Joseph and his playwright brother David are greatest identified for his or her 2010 Off Broadway musical Yank, which picked up Greatest Musical nominations from Drama Desk, the Outer Critics Circle, and the Lucille Lortel Basis. Past that, Joseph has additionally written thriller novels together with the Sound of Homicide, the primary in his Musicals Are Homicide sequence, which cleverly combines fictional crimes with actual theater historical past. He even has an upcoming e book, the Periodic Desk of Broadway Musicals, written along with his husband. We additionally dive right into a enjoyable connection he and I’ve with the musical Oklahoma. His frustrations with the musical manufacturing course of, and his ideas on how Broadway has modified over time, particularly with regards to what he calls spooficals like Spamalot. It’s a distinctive and candid dialog in regards to the craft, the historical past, and the generally messy realities of making theater. I am Pat Patrick Oliver Jones and thanks for becoming a member of me on season 9 of why I will By no means make it, an award successful theater podcast the place I discuss with fellow creatives about three tales or moments of private battle {and professional} hardship. Subscribers will get further audition tales in addition to early entry to the episodes.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
The web site is why I will nevermakeit.com the place you’ll be able to subscribe, donate and be taught extra in regards to the podcast. Once more, that is why I will by no means make it.com.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Properly welcome Joseph. It’s so nice to see you once more. It has been a few years since I used to be in entrance of you auditioning on your musical.
Joseph Zellnik:
Fairly a very long time. Sure, it is good to see you too.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Sure, good to see you. Thanks a lot for being right here. Properly, one of many different issues that we share in frequent is that my first lead position in a musical was Curly in Oklahoma. This was again within the eleventh grade for me. And the very first manufacturing that type of had any that means to you was really the 1979 revival of Oklahoma. And also you and your loved ones, you bought to see the pre Broadway tryout in Philadelphia. What was it about this manufacturing that you just love a lot?
Joseph Zellnik:
I believe it was. It was type of the. I imply, the rationale that Oklahoma. Has been so iconic for therefore lengthy. It was this concept of telling story by means of music and all the things woven collectively into type of one material. And I used to be simply type of overwhelmed by that. I had seen another musicals in both novice productions or. You realize, I did see the Magic present on Broadway once I was most likely 4 or 5 and I’ve no reminiscence of it.
Joseph Zellnik:
Not that most individuals keep in mind the Magic present on Broadway anyway. It is not that effectively remembered. It ran thousand plus performances. So I believe I used to be simply type of overwhelmed by that. And I keep in mind locking myself in my bed room and placing on the album of Oklahoma and attempting very laborious to memorize all of the lyrics. So clearly one thing in it actually spoke to me.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah. Do you may have like a favourite second, favourite music from the musical?
Joseph Zellnik:
Properly, I do have favourite music from Oklahoma, however I am unable to actually inform you. It is the music that was my favourite at 10 as a result of I do not keep in mind. However now the music that tends to maneuver me essentially the most is Sorry with the Fringe on prime. Partly as a result of it is such a bizarre music to have change into such a well-known music as a result of it is not about love or it is not explicitly about love, however I believe it is a easy. It is these younger individuals dreaming about one thing and their desires to them are profound, however the viewers is type of like they’re such small desires using in a pleasant carriage to a celebration. And in order that touches me tremendously.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah, yeah. It is so fascinating. These older musicals, they discuss issues. Properly, particularly in Oklahoma, it was speaking about issues that even that fashionable viewers, after they noticed it, they might don’t have any most likely idea of what it was prefer to trip in a carriage, to have the sort of frontier life or something.
Joseph Zellnik:
Properly, the humorous factor to me now as a 50 one thing is that to the viewers in 1943, the occasions of Oklahoma have been 40 years earlier than. And that is like us trying again at issues like reveals which are set within the mid-80s and we keep in mind the Nineteen Eighties fairly effectively, so I believe among the viewers did do not forget that early twentieth century type of period and definitely nostalgia and a eager for a less complicated time. And also you gotta keep in mind that is throughout World Conflict II. A eager for a easy time and actually was a part of what made that present the success that it was is individuals needed to flee into the previous. One thing I really really feel in the mean time.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I believe each technology type of appears to be like again and be like, oh, effectively, wasn’t it less complicated then? Wasn’t it higher than. Did not now we have issues occurring that weren’t as chaotic as they’re now?
Joseph Zellnik:
I imply, it would be actually unhappy, although, if future generations look again and say, oh, keep in mind the Trump years? That was the straightforward, simple time. Nevertheless it might occur. It might occur.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah. I imply, it is fascinating what trying again at one thing, whether or not it is the rose coloured glasses or no matter it’s, that type of adjustments the previous and both makes it worse than it was, presumably, and even higher than it was.
Joseph Zellnik:
Yeah, it is true. I imply, definitely it is a huge theme that runs by means of all the things that I do creatively, is that they are typically targeted on the previous and musical theater historical past specifically. So Oklahoma, in a bizarre manner, has change into type of a talisman of lots of the tasks that I do.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah. Properly, allow us to get into your first story. And I’ll say that for actors like myself, we frequently love that rehearsal course of. We’re most at house and, you realize, as a result of we’re determining the blocking, the characters, how they work together with one another. However for you as a composer and a author, one in every of your frustrations is that this technique of placing collectively a manufacturing, as a result of lots of the points of it are type of out of your management. And as you set it, they’re this military of individuals which are wanted as a way to put one thing, you realize, on its ft. Has this at all times been a frustration for you out of your early days of writing?
Joseph Zellnik:
Properly, I believe it’s a supply of frustration, but it surely’s not a frustration precisely with the method, as a result of I really love the method of being in rehearsal. It is, I assume, a part of technique of getting to truly be in a rehearsal room with a music director and actors and a director and all people working in direction of attempting to carry your phrases and notes to life. You realize, the frustration is you can’t even know whether or not or not what you may have written will resonate with individuals, will resonate with an viewers, till you may have assembled a military of individuals to assist carry it to life. And so definitely the. The older I obtained, the extra it appeared prefer it simply. You’d Begin to write a musical, and also you’d assume, all proper, if I am fortunate, it’s going to take two years to put in writing a present, after which perhaps one other three to 10 years earlier than I can put this in entrance of an viewers. And that feels daunting in a manner that type of, you realize, you’ll be able to’t even make sure that it would ever see the sunshine of day.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Of the reveals that you’ve got written, which one has taken the longest to come back to stage?
Joseph Zellnik:
Properly, I imply, Yank is the present that I’ve written that most individuals know greatest. And that one took about. We began engaged on that proper across the yr 2000 or so, and it reached off Broadway in 2010. In order that took 10 years and one other 4 years to get an album out. And different reveals I, you realize, that. Which have by no means seen the sunshine of day we have been engaged on for a very long time, they usually’ve been turned down for prizes and turned, you realize, had readings, however non-public business readings, and by no means went wherever. So I do not know whether or not to rely these. Perhaps in the future they’re going to seem, but when so, the gestation interval for one thing like that could be 20 years.
Joseph Zellnik:
So.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Properly, as. As a composer, I imply, you clearly have sure concepts and intentions as you are writing them. How do you steadiness that singular imaginative and prescient with. With the concepts and intentions from administrators and choreographers that are available? And, you realize, I. I assume what I am actually asking is, when do you stand agency on a selected level? When do you type of acquiesce and let others type of take your piece and go in a path?
Joseph Zellnik:
That is a. That is an excellent query and really type of an astute level, which is without doubt one of the issues that my brother and I say, and we usually write musicals collectively. He has written some issues with different individuals, however the musicals I’ve written have all been with my brother. And it is like, what are the tent poles? Like, what are the issues that you just will not give in on? What are the stuff you take into account to be, you realize, completely cannot be modified? What are the songs that can’t be minimize? And I really feel like that is an essential factor for a author to truly know. What are the issues that. When you take this out, then the construction collapses? As a result of, after all, we have minimize songs alongside the way in which, and generally we minimize songs on the request of the director. And there have been one or two circumstances the place we minimize songs as a result of an actor did not really feel comfy doing it or mentioned, I do not want this music to get me to the subsequent place. And normally we’re very.
Joseph Zellnik:
I really get pleasure from that type of that push, pull. And there is a sure thrill to an ego, anyone’s ego, that comes from individuals caring sufficient about what you may have written to have that type of knowledgeable opinion. It means they’ve spent a number of time eager about it. It means they’re invested in it. So I do not take it as, like an insult if somebody needs to chop one thing or if individuals wish to change sure issues, like change the write out on the music, you realize, change the button. However, you realize, so principally, as I mentioned, I really get pleasure from being in rehearsal. And actually, a few of my most profound moments with numerous reveals are inclined to occur throughout rehearsal. It is that first second when the actors get off e book, do the scene, are actually contained in the scene or music, and you are like, wow.
Joseph Zellnik:
I am, like, overwhelmed by that. And you may solely have that feeling as soon as. That is that type of tickle up your backbone the place you are like, wow, are your hair stand on finish. And also you assume, that is actually working. That is actually good. That does not at all times final in entrance of an viewers, however that is a unique.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Properly, yeah, such as you mentioned, as you are writing it, you are type of with your self or together with your brother. The 2 of you might be writing collectively. And that, you realize, earlier than you get to an viewers within the theater, that your first viewers actually is the actors, that the artistic staff, the individuals there. And in order that’s your type of check as to is it working or not.
Joseph Zellnik:
Oh, yeah. While you see the remainder of the solid sitting out in the home watching another person’s quantity, you are like, okay, this one’s working. As a result of they’re already an viewers, they usually may very well be off on their telephones, they may very well be off doing one thing else, however they’re selecting to be there and watch their fellow actors do a scene. So that you assume, yeah, that is. You are completely proper. They’re the primary viewers.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah. Properly, I imply, throughout COVID we have been definitely all out of labor and needing one thing to do. And also you turned an concept that had been brewing, you realize, fairly some time for you, and it needed to do with writing a selected type of thriller novel. Now, to take a step again, when did you first uncover thriller novels? What’s it about them that you just love a lot?
Joseph Zellnik:
I grew up loving thriller novels, they usually have been type of a function in my home. We had tons of them. You realize, among the many books that we had, and we used to get one thing known as Ellery Queen’s Thriller Journal, which is {a magazine} of Quick thriller tales, and that will come to the home each month and we’d combat over who obtained to learn it first. However my sister and I have been actually those who beloved thriller novels. And he or she and I, within the early a part of the century, had really co written two historic thriller novels and had them revealed. And it type of petered out particularly she began to have youngsters, after which she was now not accessible to work on books. And that is again type of, you realize, about 2007, 2008, once I first had this concept, what if I might write in thriller novels that had a musical theater background that introduced collectively my two huge loves, which have been mysteries and musicals. In order that’s, that is.
Joseph Zellnik:
And Covid, as you say, is the time when lastly, wow, I’ve nothing else to do. I am in my home on my own. Perhaps now’s the second to attempt to write this e book that I’ve considered again in my head for therefore lengthy.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
And why do you assume that? You realize, clearly you like musicals, you realize, as do I. We’re each within the musical theater world. What was it about that exact that you just thought would lend itself to combining it with, like, a homicide thriller novel?
Joseph Zellnik:
Properly, a part of that comes from, I imply, like, like many issues, it is a copycat factor. There’s an enormous world, and in the event you aren’t any person who reads mysteries, you won’t know this, however there’s an enormous world of style mysteries that like little niches. There’s. There’s thriller novels round knitting, there’s thriller novels round, like, canines and cats. There’s thriller novels round bookstores. There’s thriller novels in all these little, like, area of interest pursuits. And I seen that there was none for individuals who beloved basic Broadway musicals. And but virtually all people in America is aware of the Sound of Music.
Joseph Zellnik:
Nearly all people on the planet is aware of Fiddler on the Roof. And but no person had carried out a thriller novel the place the individuals who created that, Jerome Robbins, Zero Mostel, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Mary Martin, none of those individuals have been characters in books, whereas you had loads the place Eleanor Roosevelt was a personality or Jane Austen was a personality. And so I believed, effectively, there’s clearly an viewers for historic mysteries with actual individuals in them. Why not theater?
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Proper? And also you talked about Sound of Music, and that’s really the primary e book that you just went after, the Sound of Homicide, as you name it, and it makes use of the 1959 tryout of the unique Sound of Music as a type of a backdrop. What made you decide this musical specifically?
Joseph Zellnik:
Properly, in eager about the thought, I actually type of had a realization that no matter musical I Picked needed to be one thing that everyone is aware of in order that I might not must get slowed down in attempting to elucidate the plot of a musical to the reader or who the characters are to the reader. And legally, you run into an fascinating type of conundrum. Right here you might be free to. With well-known public figures like Rodgers and Hammerstein and Mary Martin, you’ll be able to write them as fictional characters in your e book, and there is no authorized repercussions. However. However quote two traces of lyrics from the present, a quote, a line of dialogue, and now you want permission from the property. And I wasn’t sure that I definitely did not wish to get into that tangle of getting to get authorized releases for this. So by sticking with a present the place I simply needed to point out the title of a music, My Favourite Issues, the Sound of Music, the Lonely Goatherd.
Joseph Zellnik:
Everyone would already know what music I used to be speaking about. And I might make jokes about yodeling, or I might discuss in regards to the staging of a music and the viewers, or the reader, fairly I nonetheless name them the viewers. My readers would already know what I used to be speaking about. And I would not must, you realize, be actually pedantic and clarify all the things.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah. As a result of with these. These basic musicals, such as you mentioned that so many individuals have seen them, however.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
You’Re taking a twist.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
You take what we all know, however including one thing totally different that we would not find out about.
Joseph Zellnik:
Yeah. And one of many enjoyable issues, to me, at the least, in regards to the Sound of Music is that the most individuals are accustomed to the film. And the unique Broadway present was fairly totally different in a variety of alternative ways from the film. So I believed, I’ve that going for me, that individuals shall be accustomed to the characters, they’re going to be accustomed to the setup. However I can shock them, too, as a result of if I am speaking about My favourite issues within the present, that is a duet between. In scene two, between Maria and the Mom Abbess. And clearly within the film, it is, you realize, with the children throughout a rainstorm. And so I believed that may hopefully make individuals say, oh, perhaps there’s extra to the Sound of Music than I do know.
Joseph Zellnik:
They usually will not simply shut the e book and assume, effectively, I’ve. You realize, I already know what that is speaking about.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
As a result of such as you say the Sound of Music, individuals instantly consider Julie Andrews, however that is not the Broadway model.
Joseph Zellnik:
It’s superb how many individuals, once I discuss in regards to the e book to them, they’re. They’re like, oh, my God, I really like the Sound of Music. Is Julie Andrews a suspect? And I am like, no, no, she actually is not. She did not actually have something to do with the Sound of music in 1959. So, you realize, and as for, as for like, why a thriller? It is as a result of that style is one thing I really like and I am unsure that I’ll ever write a severe novel, a literary novel. And a part of that’s as a result of there is a inbuilt construction with mysteries. You at all times know what you are ready for. You are ready to disclose who the killer is.
Joseph Zellnik:
And that type of construction is reassuring to me as a result of even in the event you get caught up in speaking in regards to the staging of a musical quantity, you realize that you just’re nonetheless, you continue to know why you are studying the e book. It is not merely a backstage story set at a musical that everyone knows it has fictional characters who’re concerned within the homicide case in addition to actual individuals. You realize, hopefully that is one thing enjoyable for readers that they, you realize, weigh in too. I believed for thriller novel readers, musical theater is a contemporary backdrop. And for musical theater followers, mysteries won’t be one thing they do effectively. So for each side of the equation, you get one thing enjoyable and one thing totally different.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
And with these actual life individuals doing fictional issues, you probably did attempt to at the least base it as a lot on actuality about what that rehearsal course of was like, what was actually occurring, after which simply including your personal splashes to it.
Joseph Zellnik:
Precisely. I learn a number of. I learn everybody who had written an autobiography. I learn that. I learn biographies of the key figures they usually’re all large enough that, you realize, there are biographies and autobiography from Mary Martin and Richard Rogers. Oscar Hammerstein didn’t stay lengthy sufficient to put in writing an autobiography, however he is definitely been written about sufficient. So wherever doable, I attempted to make use of quotes from these individuals. I did not.
Joseph Zellnik:
I attempted to, once I put phrases into their mouth, definitely phrases that have been about what they thought in regards to the theater, I attempted to ensure that they have been issues that these individuals really believed and really mentioned. After which it was actually enjoyable for me to attempt to weave in sure anecdotes and attempt to place them within the e book in such a manner that they supported the thriller plot in addition to being true and giving individuals an thought of what life backstage at a musical headed in direction of Broadway could be like.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
And as you have been studying these histories and biographies, what did you really stumble upon, perhaps like a thriller or one thing that that might really be used, you realize, an actual life factor that may very well be utilized in these tales?
Joseph Zellnik:
Truly, I’ve not. The. The Sound of Music was, was a reasonably uneventful. Only for a second, this really gave me Gave me pause. However the Sound of Music was really a reasonably uneventful tryout. The. The individuals concerned have been so well-known, the pre sale was so big, it was going to be successful, you realize, or at the least it was going to run it doesn’t matter what the evaluations have been, you realize, they usually added one music out of city, however they actually did not change a number of issues, so I did not have a number of issues to go on. I’ll inform you, really, that is.
Joseph Zellnik:
This can be too obscure for individuals. You may minimize it later if you need. However there was one enjoyable factor that I found, very minor, that I used to be actually excited to construct into the Boston tryout a part of the novel. And that was that the present went barely over price range. And that was as a result of, in accordance with one of many producers, as a result of Richard Rogers hated the couch that that they had picked for the Von Trapp front room, and he insisted that they throw it out they usually purchase a brand new couch or construct a brand new couch, as a result of musical theater units are normally not simply, you realize, go to the shop and purchase a settee. And that put them over price range. And so I had constructed against the law round blood staining a settee and them needing to exchange it out of city. And that part of the e book finally obtained rewritten so closely that there was no blood on the couch.
Joseph Zellnik:
And so I used to be not in a position to make use of that actual truth as a chunk of my thriller plot. However. Or at the least it is not within the e book anymore. However, yeah, I prefer to strive to do this as a lot as doable.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah, it is fascinating. Whilst you have been telling that story, I obtained to pondering, proper, he needed to eliminate the couch as a result of there was a physique in it, or there was one thing, you realize, one thing nefarious was occurring.
Joseph Zellnik:
However the conceit in these books is that I’ve based mostly them, that I’ve discovered an excellent uncle’s who was a stage supervisor’s notebooks about his time engaged on these basic Broadway musicals, and that I’ve edited them for public consumption now to carry to gentle these crimes that have been swept below the carpet. And partly I did that so that individuals would type of get the concept that these have been issues based mostly on truth.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
And so with penning this e book, you realize, the method is all you, not like what we have been speaking about with writing a musical the place so many others are concerned. Do you want this solo work in contrast with the collaborative course of?
Joseph Zellnik:
Yeah. Coming full circle to the place you started, which is. Sure. One of many causes. One of many causes I wrote was as a result of Covid left me alone, you realize, in my home with my husband and, you realize, Nothing to do. However a part of the rationale that I, I needed to put in writing thriller novels was as a result of if you end a e book, it is a completed e book. You may hand, even when it isn’t revealed, you’ll be able to hand it to a buddy. They learn the e book, they’ve the expertise of the e book, you realize, and so after years of scuffling with the truth that I might write a music at a piano, but it surely could be years earlier than I noticed it delivered to life on a stage due to needing all these different individuals, the concept that I might management all the things was very, very interesting.
Joseph Zellnik:
After which know-how has modified, you realize, since I first had the thought again in 2007. And now it’s totally simple and doable to, to mainly arrange a publishing firm your self and to publish the e book on-line, book and paperback, and you may get the e book on the market, and you do not want a significant writer, you do not want different individuals, you do not want gatekeepers. You may simply say, I believe this is able to share with the general public, and share it with the general public.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
So is it feels like your objective is, such as you mentioned, to share it with different individuals, not essentially make some huge cash from it, though that is definitely a objective as effectively.
Joseph Zellnik:
I get pleasure from earning money from issues, however that isn’t the first cause. When you dream of creating some huge cash, I do not assume writing books or writing musicals is essentially your greatest.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Technique, though you’ve got definitely carried out very effectively for your self.
Joseph Zellnik:
I’ve carried out fairly effectively. And, you realize, on the darkish days, I attempt to remind myself of that, that there are many individuals who would kill to have the, you realize, had the success that I’ve had. However, you realize, I’ve by no means been capable of solely help myself from inventive endeavors, at the least not but.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
As we get into the story quantity two, you say that you just turned dissatisfied with the state of Broadway. This was about 20 or 25 years in the past with what you name spooficals, which, that are these, you realize, these reveals such as you’re in City or Spamalot, which handled musicals type of like a joke. Songs have been introduced with irony, type of, you realize, type of quote marks, type of.
Joseph Zellnik:
Look, we’re singing a music.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah, proper. And now I’ve. I need to say that personally, I really like Swim so much. It’s really one in every of my favourite musicals. I might take that solid recording such as you did with Oklahoma, and I might hearken to it over and over. So I, I, I really like that musical.
Joseph Zellnik:
I do not imply to, I do not imply to, like, Stomp on Camelot or Urinetown, which I additionally like, however the particular, you realize, the precise second that gave beginning to the present Yank that we have already talked about, that I wrote with my brother got here as a result of we have been singing by means of previous songs from. And particularly we have been singing by means of some songs from Brigadoon. And we sang by means of the Heather on the Hill, which is a music I really like quite a bit. Nevertheless it’s so candy, it is so mild, it is so lyrical. We thought, will this ever come again? Will audiences ever be prepared to have a quiet second with characters on a stage the place they are not laughing at the concept that characters are saying they’re in love by singing a music the place they’re really watching characters fall in love and, and be contained in the second. Aspect observe, this has occurred. Now we have seen an excellent flowering of Broadway within the final 25 years. And now all kinds of reveals.
Joseph Zellnik:
There are nonetheless reveals that type of thrive on wink, wink, ironic use of songs. However there are additionally very, very honest, very severe minded musicals now discovering success. However on the time it felt like that type of musical theater was type of lifeless.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Properly, additionally in 20, 25 years in the past, a number of films have been being became musicals as effectively. So. In order that, that was a complete different style type of. And so it is like, the place’s the unique musical? The place, the place did it go?
Joseph Zellnik:
Precisely, Precisely. It was type of felt, it felt like there wasn’t a number of originality and there wasn’t a number of sweetness and light-weight. So my brother and I believed, I’m wondering if a contemporary viewers may even settle for this. And that type of appeared like a problem to us. So we thought, why do not we attempt to write it? As a result of if a present like that may succeed, we’re the appropriate individuals to put in writing it as a result of that is what we love most. In order that gave us the type of first impetus of writing Yank.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
And definitely, I imply, revivals of classical musicals are definitely a mainstay on Broadway. There’s present productions of Gypsy and Cabaret. So do you assume that writing a brand new musical in that type is simply tough or simply our fashionable sensibilities, extra up to date? We’re simply in a unique place.
Joseph Zellnik:
You realize, I do not know that I am the particular person greatest suited to providing you with a solution on what fashionable viewers is how they strategy, you realize, these, these tasks. I do know that you just, you are type of pertaining to a fascinating level, which could be very legitimate when it comes to how we ended up writing the present that we wrote, which was Yank. For these of you who do not know, Yank is a World Conflict II love story between two male troopers who Discover one another on the planet. And what we determined after having determined to attempt to write one thing on this grand previous type is like, effectively, we love these previous reveals. And as you say, they get revived. So there is no level in attempting to put in writing a brand new Brigadoon, as a result of now we have Brigadoon. So we did seek for what might we write? What would material be that will by no means have been written within the 40s or 50s, however we might deal with it in that type. So it is virtually like a misplaced musical, the musical Rodgers and Hammerstein did not write.
Joseph Zellnik:
And that is how we type of discovered. We discovered this e book known as Coming Out Underneath Hearth by an writer named Alan Berube, which was a nonfiction e book about gays and lesbians serving throughout World Conflict II. And we thought this might do it. We might write our model of a World Conflict II love story, like South Pacific, solely it could be between two males. After which we might see if an viewers would settle for this type of sincerity, however it could even be a contemporary type of sound, as a result of there had by no means been that type of mild, lyrical love music for 2 males in a Broadway musical.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
And that is definitely true. And, you realize, we talked about how actors acquired the music that you just get. What was their response? Trigger clearly, you are coping with fashionable actors, you realize, not actors from the 40s. What have been their responses and reactions as they have been getting this music?
Joseph Zellnik:
I imply, I’ll say that of all of the issues I’ve written, not solely has Yank had extra business success, Yank additionally was so instantly embraced by individuals within the room from the minute that we had our first type of public studying, which was solely the primary act. We solely had a primary act at that time. And you might already really feel the vitality within the room was this was the story individuals needed to see. And it is humorous that you just talked about actors, although, specifically, as a result of Bobby Stegert, who did the present a variety of instances as much as and together with the Off Broadway premiere in 2010, after which he did some pre Broadway workshops, which ended up not main us to Broadway. However he was concerned with the present for a few years. And we had despatched out feelers to him for the New York Music Theater Competition manufacturing of the present, which was a number of years earlier. And he thought to himself, a World Conflict II homosexual love story. That is gonna be camp, and I do not wanna do a camp present.
Joseph Zellnik:
So he turned us down. He did not even are available to fulfill with us. After which a number of years later, after we have been doing the present in Brooklyn, he really sat down and browse the script. And, and due to. On the web page, he might inform it was honest and it was not an try and be a campy type of joke about what can be humorous if, like, troopers fell in love. He mentioned sure. Regardless that we have been doing the present in a basement in Brooklyn. He, you realize, he was at that time engaged on Broadway and he was like, I wish to do that present a lot that I am prepared to do it for no cash in a basement in Brooklyn.
Joseph Zellnik:
So I do assume actors, after they, after they discover materials that they like, you realize, they’re prepared to do what they must do to get to do it.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah. And it is fascinating that you just talked about that. I believe again as a result of this was a present, it was this time that, that you just and I obtained to fulfill together with David and. And I obtained to audition for Yank. And I keep in mind I introduced in. Now, I. I introduced in a basic music, Stout Hearted Males. I believe it is from the Nineteen Thirties.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
And. However I, I put a spin on it. I, I put, you realize, stout hearted males, fairly than simply speaking about males in uniform, I added a bit camp to it. And I am questioning if that campiness is perhaps what was like, effectively, that is probably not what we wish. Thanks, Patrick. Off, off you go.
Joseph Zellnik:
I want I might say I keep in mind. I do not keep in mind the rationale, you realize, casting is at all times a loopy.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Oh, my gosh. And imagine me, that was. That was 15 years in the past. I am not even pondering you’d keep in mind, however in my very own actor mind, we keep in mind auditions, like years. You realize, I am not a dancer. I do know that dancers will keep in mind an audition mixture that they did 15 years in the past for singers will keep in mind the songs that we did. It is fascinating as you discuss the way you did not wish to be camp. And I used to be like, effectively, that is precisely what I delivered to my audition.
Joseph Zellnik:
So I can say that, that most likely that may have been an element as a result of we have been positively seeking to forgive the time period play it straight. I imply, it was meant to be, you realize, grounded in actuality and never an try and type of, you realize, camp it up. What’s fascinating on this regard, or perhaps fascinating. It is fascinating to me, after we did the present in London, the present, we had a phenomenal manufacturing in London. We have been very, very pleased with the director. We have been, you realize, ecstatic in regards to the solid that we had. However there was one {photograph} of the title music that occurred to appear to be. And it was a nonetheless.
Joseph Zellnik:
When you, if you watch the dance, you didn’t. This second glided by in half a Second, however there was a second that type of a wrist flick that made it appear to be limp wrists, like a bunch of males type of flapping their wrists. And that was the image that any person selected to make use of as one of many press packet. And that is the image that ran in Timeout London. We obtained many, many pretty evaluations. However, like Time Out, London didn’t just like the present. And they didn’t just like the present as a result of they felt it was too dour, too severe, took itself too significantly. And I.
Joseph Zellnik:
I keep in mind pondering, that is the authors. We keep in mind the press. I simply keep in mind pondering, I believe they obtained the flawed impression of the present due to the superior, you realize, images they noticed that made it appear to be this was going to be type of campier than it was. And there’s humor in Yankee, however there’s not a number of tenting. It is not speculated to be handled as a joke.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Had been there explicit basic songs? You realize, clearly your love of musical theater historical past was there as you have been writing it, however have been there explicit songs or writers writing groups that you just both emulated or needed to evoke as you wrote Yank?
Joseph Zellnik:
Properly, definitely Oscar Hammerstein had so much to do with how we handled sure moments due to his love. The most important love ballad in Yank is named A Couple of Common Guys. And it is all about how we simply need what our neighbors have. We simply desire a home with a picket fence and, you realize, coming house on the finish of the day and smiling at one another. And that’s pure Oscar Hammerstein. That was what he did, and it was type of loosely based mostly, and that is lyrically greater than musically, on a music known as the Of us who Reside on the Hill, which was written with Jerome Kern within the 30s. And it is the identical type of factor, is that the 2 of us will simply have our lives, you realize, collectively in a. A quiet, easy manner, however we’ll at all times be the comfortable pair that we’re.
Joseph Zellnik:
And I might say that for me, among the composers that I really feel like I emulated in occasional moments, perhaps stole from within the present have been Rogers and Burton Lane and Frank Lesser and Harold Darlin. There are a pair issues within the present which are virtually cribbed from Harold Darlin. And after we have been doing rehearsals, our music director, Rob Berman, who clearly is aware of from previous musicals as a result of he did encores for therefore a few years, he mentioned to me, that is one of the best factor Harold Arlen has written in years. Like, yeah, okay, wonderful, I stole that little phrase from, you realize, however he.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Wrote so many songs within the Forties, you realize, round World Conflict II. So, I imply, his type is nearly simply evocative of World Conflict II itself.
Joseph Zellnik:
Precisely. @ this level, what you need, in case you are attempting to put in writing songs that type of give the viewers, set an viewers in a world, a interval, you must type of lean on sure conventions of the interval. And as you say, somebody like Carol Darland, somebody like Richard Rogers, that they had so many hit songs that it is not possible that you just’re not going to be attempting to evoke one thing a bit bit.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Clearly there have been homosexual individuals all through historical past, however it’s definitely extra of a recent storyline to have these homosexual relationships inside musicals, inside TV reveals. You realize, all the things that we watch today. Was there a priority that individuals won’t take a World Conflict II homosexual love story as significantly as you needed them to?
Joseph Zellnik:
We have been fortunate. And we labored laborious to verify individuals knew that the present was based mostly on historic truth. The story of our predominant character, whose title is Stu and his love affair with Mitch, is fictional. Each of them are fictional characters. However I discussed earlier, there is a e book known as Coming Out Underneath Hearth by Alan Berube. And it was. He had interviewed, I do not know what number of dozens at the least, homosexual service individuals who served in the course of the conflict and their tales have been within the e book. And so whereas we created a fictional storyline, principally my brother, he created a fictional storyline.
Joseph Zellnik:
The entire issues that occurred within the e book, I imply within the e book of the musical Yank did occur in actual life. There have been individuals who fell in love with fellow troopers and settled down after the conflict and had a life collectively. There have been. Had been homosexual orgies, there have been homosexual codes. Methods you of type of indicating to different troopers that you just have been maybe open for one thing. There was a number of sexual exercise between males that occurred throughout World Conflict II as a result of there have been. They might. Folks have been residing in a world the place there have been no ladies.
Joseph Zellnik:
Put a number of males in a spot the place they don’t have any ladies for 4 or 5 years, there’s going to be some similar intercourse exercise. So the extra outrageous the factor we describe within the present, the extra probably it’s that it’s based mostly on pure truth and in reality based mostly on a selected anecdote that we learn in that e book, in our press releases, in our supplies that we despatched to individuals, all of this was type of made clear. And the tagline we selected to make use of for the present, which we selected and used it from as early on because the New York Music theater pageant in 2005, during the Off Broadway opening in 2010, which is a few tales, did not make it into the historical past books. And so it. It type of mentioned proper up entrance, that is an American historical past story in addition to a love story.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
So did you give your self any, I assume, boundaries, so to talk, like, effectively, we do not wish to go too far with this story. We do not wish to, you realize, we do not wish to shock individuals an excessive amount of or, you realize, do. Did. Had been there sure bounds that you just had as you have been writing Yank?
Joseph Zellnik:
Truly, we have been type of actually dedicated to the thought. Now, Yank just isn’t an specific present in any manner. It is not have. Have intercourse scenes or something, something however. However we needed to say that. I imply, the essential assertion, which isn’t, I believe, a profound assertion is that homosexual {couples} are just about the identical as straight {couples}. It is simply the way in which they fall in love, the way in which they maneuver, you realize, you realize, maneuver themselves into really acknowledging their love, the way in which they work together bodily. Our director for the present for a very long time and up by means of off Broadway was Igor golden, and he did a phenomenal job.
Joseph Zellnik:
You realize, characters simply. Or the 2 lovers caressing one another, kissing the again of their neck, or simply behaving the way in which they might behave. And for essentially the most half, audiences took this completely. Didn’t imply something to individuals or it did not upset individuals as a result of it wasn’t that frequent in 2005, 2006, 2007 to see that type of affection between similar intercourse {couples}. And the few moments, and we have been at all times very happy with it, however the few moments when an viewers member would stand up in a huff and depart the theater, which occurred a number of instances, was at all times throughout moments of tenderness. It was not. We had one character who could be very flamboyant and talks so much about intercourse. No, that did not trouble them.
Joseph Zellnik:
That didn’t trouble them within the slightest. However, you realize, two males gradual dancing cheek to cheek on a stage, that was an excessive amount of for an viewers member in Brooklyn. And he or she obtained up and huffily grabbed her coat and left on the theater. In order I mentioned, we have been type of happy that we have been nonetheless capable of shock any person. However not many individuals get shocked by that anymore. And definitely in 2025 now, fortunately, audiences are of all, you realize, TV, films, theater are all used to seeing that. And so it isn’t groundbreaking anymore.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Properly, as we head into story quantity three, Broadway historical past is definitely a type of a theme that runs by means of virtually all the things that you’ve got. And I’ve to admit that the Broadway historical past just isn’t actually my sturdy swimsuit. You realize, though I am getting higher. I imply, just about if, if I have not seen it or carried out in it, then I most likely do not know a lot about it, however fortunately I have been within the enterprise 30 plus years, so I’ve gotten to do so much, a number of reveals. Yeah, however. However does somebody like me, who’s pretty blind to musical theater, does that frustrate you? Simply, you realize, because you worth such an essential place in Broadway historical past, it.
Joseph Zellnik:
Doesn’t exist frustrate me, no. However I do want generally that individuals would examine as a result of I believe there’s so much previously in Broadway’s previous that individuals may love. The mission that you just’re type of segueing into is that I’ve a e book that I co wrote that’s popping out in October of this yr, 2025, and it is known as the Periodic Desk of Broadway Musicals. And what that is based mostly on. That is based mostly on a poster, a poster that was created by my husband, Andrew Gerla, and he teaches musical theater at Manhattan College of Music. And the poster was born out of a imprecise type of frustration for him that he felt like his college students did not know among the issues they need to know. And so he got down to type of say, effectively, what are the reveals that everyone should know? What if you need a grounding in musical theater, what are the reveals you could know? And so he created A poster of 118 reveals as a result of there are 118 parts within the periodic desk of parts. And he stored that format and it turned out to be tough to slender it down.
Joseph Zellnik:
At first he was frightened there would not be sufficient reveals that have been essential, after which it was like, oh, no, it may be a problem to slender this all the way down to 118. So this poster has been an enormous success. And so throughout COVID once more, we created a e book pitch saying, since a poster can solely have little tile for every present, would not or not it’s nice to have a e book that had the art work work blown up giant after which had an essay in regards to the present and why it is a present that each musical theater fan should know. And so collectively we wrote this e book known as the Periodic Desk of Broadway Musicals. And it is obtained 118 little mini essays in addition to every household within the desk has an essay about what connects these reveals. So, yeah, it is type of 90 plus years of musical theater historical past in between two covers, so hopefully individuals will get pleasure from it.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
However the poster got here first. And so, you realize, simply type of deciding these titles. However then you must write about them. And as you wrote about them, did that change your minds so far as, effectively, perhaps this one should not be on the listing. Or perhaps we should always substitute it with one other. Did the listing undergo any adjustments?
Joseph Zellnik:
Properly, the poster went by means of two editions. The poster was so profitable, he issued a second version a number of years later and did. Did swap out some reveals as a result of clearly when one thing new comes alongside, that is an enormous, you realize, influential present. You wish to embrace it on the poster. And there’ll finally, I assume, be a 3rd version of the poster. And so for each present that you just add, you must take one away. However this e book is predicated on the second version of the poster. So we didn’t change the reveals which are concerned.
Joseph Zellnik:
The one factor we did was add a piece for Off Broadway which the poster doesn’t include. However there are some key titles within the musical theater canon which are off Broadway reveals. One thing just like the Fantasticks. You would be loopy to say that musical theater followers should not know the Fantastics. However for the reason that present, for the reason that desk is of Broadway musicals, we could not embrace it. So there are reveals like that, your Good Man Charlie Brown, and sure, there was a revival of your Good Man Charlie Band on Broadway, however. However its preliminary incarnation was off Broadway. Similar factor with Little Clap of Horrors.
Joseph Zellnik:
These are primarily off Broadway reveals, even when later revivals are carried out on Broadway. And in order that felt good. It felt good to have the ability to embrace extra titles that we felt should be identified.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Properly, with 118, I am curious, was there 119th present that you just want might have been within the listing?
Joseph Zellnik:
Solely, and I am not going to inform you what it’s, however solely as a result of there are a number of reveals which have opened for the reason that final poster got here out, I believe in 2021, one thing like that. And there have been some reveals within the final 4 years that we want to embrace on the subsequent model of the poster. And we thought-about, you realize, knocking one thing off the desk and placing in a more moderen present. After which we determined we would go away it as it’s for now and wait till we subject a 3rd poster. Nevertheless it was positively an fascinating. An fascinating expertise, type of having to delve deep into a number of these reveals, you realize, that I did not know as effectively. You realize, since we have been dividing reveals up, since each of us have been engaged on the e book, we might usually go present by present. I might work on a present, he would work on a present, after which we might type of learn one another’s essays and make some feedback.
Joseph Zellnik:
However so I tended to skew in direction of the previous. Something from just like the 30s, 40s, 50s was extra my space, his was extra up to date. Nevertheless it actually pressured us to say what’s significant about every of those reveals? What’s the factor that it, you realize, even reveals that I could personally style clever. Spamalot is an enormous favourite of yours. It is not a selected favourite of mine, but it surely’s on the desk. And so why does it need to be on the desk? Why does it need to be in our e book? Why? What about it was notable and added one thing to the shape?
Patrick Oliver Jones:
What would you say is a by means of line?
Patrick Oliver Jones:
When you can slender it down to at least one or two issues, what do you assume is a by means of line that makes a present worthy of an inclusion on such a listing?
Joseph Zellnik:
Properly, really, that is one thing that is type of handled within the e book. And there’s no by means of line. There is not any one factor that makes a present essential. So we did sit down and take a look at to determine. Some reveals are positively essential as a result of the rating is essential. Some reveals are. Are. Are, you realize, proof of the significance of star energy on Broadway.
Joseph Zellnik:
Largely feminine star energy on Broadway. There’s a entire part of the poster within the e book known as Main woman reveals. As a result of there are a number of main woman reveals on Broadway. There aren’t very many main man reveals. There’s solely two that I can consider. I could also be forgetting one thing, however the man of La Mancha and Find out how to Achieve Enterprise with out actually Attempting are very clearly main man reveals. The man on the heart of that’s in each scene. The entire present rests on his shoulders.
Joseph Zellnik:
However there’s so many extra main women.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah, the Music man was one which got here to thoughts as effectively. That is one other one the place it is okay.
Joseph Zellnik:
Music man is a number one man present. However I might additionally say that Marian is. I might say it is a bit bit extra of an equal steadiness. You want Marian or else Harold.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Sort of like Oklahoma. Curly is unquestionably the star, however you bought to have Laurie after which Eller.
Joseph Zellnik:
These reveals typically had subplots that have been crucial. However take into consideration, like, Humorous Lady. You realize, Fanny and Nick are a pair, however Nick is. There is not any manner that Nick goes to steal that present. Like, Nick just isn’t given the fabric to stroll off with that present. Hi there, Dolly. Yeah, Horace Vandergelder. I imply, he is an okay character, however once more, Horace Vandergelder is rarely going to be the star above the title of hiya Dolly.
Joseph Zellnik:
So, you realize, Annie, get your Gun. All of those reveals the place ladies mainly rule. And that has been a theme from Broadway. The earliest main woman present on the desk is Annie get yout gun, which is 1946. This has been occurring for a Very very long time. And so I wish to loop again and end the reply to your query in regards to the throughline, which is that what we do within the e book and what the poster does by dividing up reveals into households, 10 households, simply the identical manner that the periodic desk has 10 households of parts, mainly there are 10 by means of traces, we give 10 totally different type of methods of trying on the musical theater canon and divide reveals into households by that type of thought. After which inside every essay, we generally discuss star energy, generally we discuss in regards to the rating, generally we discuss choreography, generally we discuss units. Some reveals actually rise and fall on their spectacle.
Joseph Zellnik:
So many various methods of pleasing an viewers in musical theater. And it is one of many issues that is thrilling in regards to the final 25 years, I believe, is that increasingly we’re seeing alternative ways of making one thing. And it is nonetheless a musical, but it surely’s not the identical type of musical that, you realize, existed within the Fifties. And but clearly there’s some type of connection.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
So. And that is one thing, as somebody who’s has studied this historical past, and it is one thing I’ve considered as effectively, as a result of in musicals, ladies are as a rule entrance and heart. And the topic of those musicals, why do you assume that in musical type they get such a starring position, whereas in society they did not at all times have that? That.
Joseph Zellnik:
Oh, that is a. That is an enormous query. And I am actually unsure I’ve a solution for you. I imply, there definitely have been proficient male performers and I do not know precisely why. Audiences simply thrilled to bigger than life females and feminine performances. So I actually haven’t got a solution. I am sorry to disappoint you, however I really do not know why it is true. I solely know having spent many a long time taking a look at musicals, that it’s true.
Joseph Zellnik:
True.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah. As you say there, the main man musical sequence would simply be a lot shorter than a number one lady.
Joseph Zellnik:
And I imply, you realize, I am attempting to consider musical numbers that type of, you realize, are both constructed round a lady, like hiya Dolly or Mame title songs or, you realize, Do not Rain on My Parade. Some simply numbers like that for males are Fewer, the place a star both stands heart stage surrounded by your entire refrain who’s singing praises to them. I am unable to consider a single one which’s like that for a person or the place a person stands heart stage alone and mainly holds your entire theater within the palm of his hand. It is simply type of. I do not know whether or not at this level It is a conference of musical theater or whether or not or not there’s something about, you realize. Yeah, actually, I am actually mystified that you’ve got stumped me.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah, it’s one thing fascinating as a result of perhaps one thing like what you have been saying that the tender moments in Yank are if you would see individuals presumably stroll out. It was that tender second that perhaps that made them really feel uncomfortable. And I’m wondering if a lady can go there, however males cannot go there. Perhaps one thing societal. And with regards to these roles.
Joseph Zellnik:
Per se, we’re shifting well past musical.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
I do know, I do know. Now we’re attending to the deep stuff.
Joseph Zellnik:
It is doable that since in our tradition, males aren’t usually allowed to point out vulnerability or emotion, that it makes it tough to put on your coronary heart in your sleeve in the way in which that tends to attach with an viewers in a theater. Yeah. Perhaps you are onto one thing.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
And what do you assume it’s about musicals specifically versus performs? Musicals are carried out extra typically. Extra individuals go to them, they love them extra. They’re simply remembered greater than performs. Is it simply just because there’s music in it? Is that the distinction?
Joseph Zellnik:
Properly, there’s a variety of alternative ways of type of slicing up your query. Trigger you ask type of one thing that there is totally different solutions to. Sure. I believe that musicals are typically greater and splashier and offer you totally different varieties of delight. Folks shifting, whether or not that is absolutely danced or whether or not it is simply movement, are inclined to have greater and glitzier units and costumes to take a look at. However as to why musicals are carried out extra steadily, why they last more than many performs, I believe that the reply to that’s the music and the truth that music and the songs from a musical are one thing that may be consumed and loved away from the theater. So reveals stay or die on whether or not or not they’ve a solid album. It was why it was so essential to us that we had opted to not do a solid album of Yank when it was off Broadway, as a result of the present was optioned for Broadway and we did not finally get there.
Joseph Zellnik:
However that meant that after the Broadway manufacturing collapsed with out reaching Broadway, we did not have a solid album. So we needed to do a Kickstarter and. And lift the cash to do a solid album as a result of we knew that the one manner that the present would discover a broader viewers would go on the market and have extra productions. And certainly, for the reason that album has come out, we have had productions on 4 totally different continents. Folks fall in love with albums, and that makes them wish to see your entire present.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Hamilton is. I imply, clearly there’s many Examples. However Hamilton is a type of that, like non musical theater individuals who’d by no means seen the present, beloved that music simply because it was so totally different.
Joseph Zellnik:
Precisely. They adore it. And, you realize, Hamilton really factors to one in every of my favourite, favourite phenomenon, and it is solely occurred a handful of instances in Broadway historical past, which is. It is type of loopy how a present which, when it opens on Broadway, exists in a single small place in a single metropolis within the nation, can in some way, inside the area of like per week or two weeks, everybody within the nation is aware of that it is occurred. Everyone within the nation is conscious of it and desires to see it. And you are like, how does this occur? It occurred with South Pacific, occurred with Refrain Line, occurred with Hamilton. Nevertheless it’s very uncommon that you just get that type of a present the place it has cultural affect in a single day.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Yeah, yeah. Properly, I imply, the subject material was definitely it, however I. However I believe getting again to what we have been speaking about, the music is what makes it stand aside. That is what makes musicals stand aside. And it is a totally different manner into the story, a unique manner into the feelings of what is being advised musically. It simply speaks to a unique a part of us.
Joseph Zellnik:
Yeah. And likewise we have seen. Not that musicals cannot be films, not that musicals cannot be carried out as tv reveals, however performs over the twentieth century, during the last, really hundred years, have been more and more cannibalized. The viewers for performs, I really feel like, has been cannibalized by individuals who can activate their tv and watch a narrative about individuals, you realize, films, TV reveals. Actually we had a golden age of TV, you realize, 10, 15 years in the past, the place a lot of fascinating, fascinating tales with nice actors doing nice performances. However if you need the joys of watching individuals, a line of individuals faucet dancing and any person having a second of like, you realize, realization, you’ll be able to’t get that from a TV present, actually. You may solely get that by going to the theater. Which is why musicals, in some methods, I really feel like, cannot absolutely ever get replaced by TVs, films, podcasts.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Properly, this has been such a pleasure to speak to you and get inside your head and work out the method that you just undergo these musicals. Thanks a lot for sharing your entire tales.
Joseph Zellnik:
Thanks for inviting me.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
It has been a pleasure. Thanks.
Patrick Oliver Jones:
Properly, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us at this time. And keep in mind, you’ll be able to can get early entry to our full dialog by going to why I will by no means make it.com and click on subscribe. Properly, that about does it for this episode. I am your host, Patrick Oliver. Jones accountable for writing, modifying and producing this podcast. Background music is from John Bartman and the theme music that was created by me. Keep tuned for the subsequent episode once I ask the wonderful last 5 questions and we discuss extra about why I will by no means make it.
